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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870088 times)

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2385 on: July 27, 2011, 07:46:47 am »

Dude, we're not talking about implementation of solutions yet, so when you tell someone that their ideals are impractical or have unsavory implications if applied via a ridiculous extreme (such as corrective concentration camps), you're not discussing anything somebody actually said. Nadaka said that brainwashing happens, and that it's possible to brainwash someone to prefer having been brainwashed. You said that someone can always choose to overcome brainwashing, insisted that his dislike of these sects was wrong because a solution isn't obvious, and made an attempt at a rape joke that I still don't think you've apologized for (might be wrong, I was really tired last night so I could've missed it). Between being told that you're wrong on the first point, and that you shouldn't have used the language you did for the latter two, it seems like you've gotten the impression that you're the victim because you're A) disagreed with, sometimes angrily, and B) refusing to apologize for (presumably unintentionally) hurting people, as if intent is the sole determinant of results. To be honest, I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2386 on: July 27, 2011, 08:21:15 am »

You're still missing the context here. This rebuttal isn't for men in general, it's for those who are/were attacking Rebecca and other women for speaking out about sexism at Atheist and Skeptic gatherings. Read the entire thing again, including the part I edited into my last post, and it's clear who Greta is addressing with that remark. Heck, here's the entire section:
Even if it is just for those attacking Rebecca, it's still stupid to dispense unsolicited advice about how to get laid (it massively talks down to your opposing viewpoint).  If someone disagrees with something I say about personal boundaries, that doesn't give make it ok for me to just give them tips on how to sleep with the opposite sex (they definitely have cause to be seriously annoyed if I do).  There's also a clear "HAHAHA YOU'RE NOT GETTING LAID" undertone which I'm really not liking.

I mean, if Rebecca's intent was really to help those at the atheist conference get laid, then that would be extremely patronising, and that's how Greta seems to be trying to justify it, and as such she's saying it's ok to dispense unsolicited advice on how to get laid.  However, I'm pretty sure Rebecca's statement was about asking people to respect her personal boundaries rather than getting people laid, and that's perfectly fine.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2387 on: July 27, 2011, 08:21:16 am »

Dude, we're not talking about implementation of solutions yet
Why not?
, so when you tell someone that their ideals are impractical or have unsavory implications if applied via a ridiculous extreme (such as corrective concentration camps), you're not discussing anything somebody actually said.
Never said that.  I offered up one solution... the only solution presented so far.  It just happens to be a solution where people died.  If Hitler put those religious he didn't agree with in fluffy bunny camps there wouldn't be an issue today.  But he didn't.  He took religious belief to an extreme level where he labeled anyone that believed a certain thing evil... if they were born into it or not.

Nadaka said that brainwashing happens, and that it's possible to brainwash someone to prefer having been brainwashed. You said that someone can always choose to overcome brainwashing
And they can... there's proof in this very thread.

, insisted that his dislike of these sects was wrong because a solution isn't obvious
No, I insisted it was wrong because he identified everyone by their sect.  Not their individual belief.  I simply stated that I was "displeased" that nobody has offered up any of their suggestions about how to resolve the issue.  Instead, we are masturbating on how bad the people are without going to the next level.
and made an attempt at a rape joke that I still don't think you've apologized for (might be wrong, I was really tired last night so I could've missed it)
There was no "joke" that I'm aware of.  Not sure why I need to apologize.

Between being told that you're wrong on the first point,
Which point am I wrong about?

and that you shouldn't have used the language you did for the latter two
Why not?  Language is a very malleable construct apparently.  (see: Fear of God above.)  I simply used a strong word to get a point across.  I was being told that I was evil and my ideals were improper.  I was being told to leave so I felt my ideas were being "raped" from me (taken, by force.)

, it seems like you've gotten the impression that you're the victim because
... because my opinion is evil and I don't go all gushy when someone says they escaped something they say nobody can escape from.  To which I'm pushed into a corner by two to three other people and berated... no, no victimization there.  ::)

refusing to apologize for (presumably unintentionally) hurting people,
Still not sure what I'm apologizing for.  I didn't stab someone, beat them or whatever other way I presumably "hurt" someone.  Heck, I haven't even left the house since this whole conversation started so I don't know how I could have hurt someone between then and now.

as if intent is the sole determinant of results. To be honest, I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.
My intent is to find out what these people are suggesting we do about crazy people who legitimize themselves to others, held off in secret.  I'm not sure what other intent you are reading.  I never asked for sympathy and I never gave it.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2388 on: July 27, 2011, 08:23:05 am »

You are bolting the Nazi part onto his viewpoint.  It has nothing at all to do with what he said.
Sure it does.  Identify a particular group of people who you do not agree with based solely on their religion (it doesn't matter if they are firm believers in the religion or if they were simply born into it...) and subject them to special advice.  I'm not stating that there has to be killing.  There have been concentration camps in prior history that did not involve genocide.  (See the US attitude toward Japanese during the war.)
Bolded is where your argument first falls flat.  It's not "based solely on their religion".  It's based on the terrible way in which they treat their wives and children.  Their religion is completely irrelevant - if nonreligious people were treating their families like this we'd still want to intervene.

In any case, when did giving people "special advice" become synonymous with being a Nazi?  That's not even an association fallacy because Nazis weren't exactly known for giving certain religions "special advice" as opposed to using them as slaves or killing them.  It's bordering on Insane Troll Logic.

Never said that.  I offered up one solution... the only solution presented so far.  It just happens to be a solution where people died.  If Hitler put those religious he didn't agree with in fluffy bunny camps there wouldn't be an issue today.  But he didn't.  He took religious belief to an extreme level where he labeled anyone that believed a certain thing evil... if they were born into it or not.
We have suggested several ideas (education, volunteer work, police investigation to ensure that, say, child rape isn't going on) and you've just suggested a completely ridiculous one and attempted to attach Nadaka to it.
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Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2389 on: July 27, 2011, 08:33:31 am »

We aren't talking about them because we're discussing what ought be, not what is. So far, this thread just doesn't seem to have been about that. Feel free to start one, though. But you're acting like offering up a solution is a defense; it's a derail, and one deliberately designed to make your opposition look morally wrong, even though it's a ridiculous extrapolation from what they actually said. If you say that you're a fiscal conservative, and I ask why you want to exterminate the poor, you'd be perfectly within your rights to take offense. And furthermore, you keep missing that the word "always" is important. Nadaka's experience in being able to break away is not representative of everyone else's. You seem to say that every single person is capable of breaking away from these sects, while everyone else says that not everybody is (not that nobody is).

Will finish this post later, need to catch a bus.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2390 on: July 27, 2011, 08:47:34 am »

Andir don't you have heard of social services?
Around here they are in charge of checking that there is no abuse within families.


And given the huge wall of text lately, I'm not sure of what anyone is saying on what. Are you only arguing that control is impossible?

As for the "elevatorgate" all I've seen in the different comment of Dawking and Greta are people rushing to defend their own community.
The video was poorly though, in that it presented something as a feminist issue when it's rather social awkwardness at pretty high level, but apart from this, didn't deserve most of the critic it got.
Dawkin is clearly being a jerk instead of being civil, and use pretty lame technique to make her look bad.
Yet those feminist, instead of acknowledging the shortcoming of the video, have rushed to her support insisting that she was completely right and that really was a sure sign of misogyny.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 08:54:18 am by Phmcw »
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2391 on: July 27, 2011, 09:23:25 am »

Sure it does.  Identify a particular group of people who you do not agree with based solely on their religion (it doesn't matter if they are firm believers in the religion or if they were simply born into it...) and subject them to special advice.  I'm not stating that there has to be killing.  There have been concentration camps in prior history that did not involve genocide.  (See the US attitude toward Japanese during the war.)
Bolded is where your argument first falls flat.  It's not "based solely on their religion".  It's based on the terrible way in which they treat their wives and children.  Their religion is completely irrelevant - if nonreligious people were treating their families like this we'd still want to intervene.
On the contrary:
Damn right I am categorizing everyone in a sect that actively endorses rape and child abuse as evil.
His words, not mine: "I am categorizing everyone in a sect that actively endorses rape and child abuse as evil."

I never said that people shouldn't intervene... only that they couldn't.  But that borders on trying to find a solution and we aren't allowed to do that anymore.

In any case, when did giving people "special advice" become synonymous with being a Nazi?  That's not even an association fallacy because Nazis weren't exactly known for giving certain religions "special advice" as opposed to using them as slaves or killing them.  It's bordering on Insane Troll Logic.
I never said Nazi.  I specifically said Hitler.  He was in a position of power to abuse people based solely on their association.  He wasn't necessarily the one carrying out the actions, but he was the one insinuating that everyone that was of a particular sect of religion was of the same evil mind.

We have suggested several ideas (education, volunteer work, police investigation to ensure that, say, child rape isn't going on)
And I asked how you are going to do police investigation without going door to door and/or violating the rights of innocent people.

We aren't talking about them because we're discussing what ought be, not what is. So far, this thread just doesn't seem to have been about that.
Wait... the thread has spoken of actions, but we are not speaking of actions only ideas?  I guess I never got the memo where everyone decided we got into philosophy.

even though it's a ridiculous extrapolation from what they actually said.  If you say that you're a fiscal conservative, and I ask why you want to exterminate the poor, you'd be perfectly within your rights to take offense.
I never assumed anyone was talking about extermination... only re-education.

And furthermore, you keep missing that the word "always" is important. Nadaka's experience in being able to break away is not representative of everyone else's.
Damnit... back to the old denial of solutions.  This is when I would ask how you identify and inform those people that are in those situations... and where everyone jumps on me for trying to advance the conversation.

Andir don't you have heard of social services?
Around here they are in charge of checking that there is no abuse within families.
And given the huge wall of text lately, I'm not sure of what anyone is saying on what. Are you only arguing that control is impossible?
Yes, they have social services here too.  That's part of the solutions that I've said exist.  They require that the victim and/or a third party near the victim report the issue.  Children are taken away form the situation and counseled to find out if crimes are occurring.  Parents/adults are also questioned.

I've said that control is improbable and bordering on impossible.  First you have to identify the people involved in such actions.  When identified, there are resources available to counteract that violence as above.

I've also stated that the percentage of people involved in such actions make this hard as well.  It all hinges on someone breaking out of the sect and pressing charges.  If they break out and don't press charges, I don't understand how anyone expects the situation to stop.

It's almost as if people want me to make some special case for these people and I don't see reason to do so.  I simply feel that the methods and means to resolve it exist so there's nothing I need to be concerned with if the people involved (directly or indirectly) do not wish to end it.  It's like there's supposed to be special rules for the crime that's happening (because of?) and I object to that.  There are countless other rapes and abuses that happen outside these groups on a regular basis, but all that is being pushed aside for these people.  Even then, how do you expect to prevent it? (I know... I'm not supposed to being up prevention or solutions, only sit around the campfire and share feelings and hug... sorry!)
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Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2392 on: July 27, 2011, 09:52:38 am »

Or you do the obvious thing and make mandatory medical examination for children, take phone-call from neighbors, list risky cult and put them under scrutiny, air prevention message, raise more fund for support group, provide free lawyers,...

In parallel you make group that oppose religious fundamentalism, allow feminist march and rallies, provide care for child who doesn't want to return in their families....  basically improve and expend politics that are in place.

Edit: I'd like to add that the systematic abuse of their power by agencies in the US is concerning and abnormal. We have such services in Belgium and none of this crap. Our main concern is incompetence, waste and channeling of public fund into private hands, but we don't have all those policeman abuse, airport security abuse, and as far as we know, illegal wiretapping. Your democracy, your society, have a structural problem.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 09:58:18 am by Phmcw »
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RedKing

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2393 on: July 27, 2011, 10:05:36 am »

Andir, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you've never lived in an abusive household. And as such, you simply cannot understand the dynamics of one. And I don't mean that in a dismissive "It's an XXXXX thing, you wouldn't understand" sort of way, I mean you genuinely aren't going to be able to understand it. And as a result, you're free to make generalizations such as "The services are there, it's not my concern if they choose not to use them". It smacks of this scene from A Christmas Carol:

Quote
'At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, 'it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.'

'Are there no prisons?"

'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the  pen again.
'And the Union workhouses.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are  they still in operation?'


'Both very busy, sir.' 

'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'

'Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,' returned the gentleman, 'a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'

'Nothing!' Scrooge replied. 

'You wish to be anonymous?' 

'I wish to be left alone,' said Scrooge. 'Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'

'Many can't go there; and many would rather die.' 

'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better  do it, and decrease the surplus population."



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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2394 on: July 27, 2011, 10:14:09 am »

This is a really cool thread. I'm only about halfway through it right now, but I've learned a lot and thought a lot. I'm probably not going to post much (mostly because there's a lot of things that I don't know well enough to have opinions on) so this is mostly so I can watch the thread, heh.

Hey, really glad to see you!  Hope you enjoy your stay here.


(I know... I'm not supposed to being up prevention or solutions, only sit around the campfire and share feelings and hug... sorry!)

Did I say that?

No.  No, I did not.  This is part of cleaning up your rhetoric, bucko.  You stop putting words in the OP's mouth.

What did you think it was going to do for you, hm?  I run off, and go "Oh man, he has demeaned the space I am maintaining by implying that it is nothing more than a little support group, no matter how many arguments and oppositions I have entertained here!  No fucking way.  I will immediately stop policing language in order to allow people who have actually experienced this shit to speak, because Andir's opinion is the most important."

No.  If you disagree with my attitudes and opinions--particularly about moderation--you can ask questions or make a case, whatever.  I've gotten PMs about this, spoken about it in other threads.  Hell, the first couple pages are basically about suggestions in changes to the OP and its interpretation, putting both religion and conservatism under its banner of protection.  I've happily listened to all of these people and incorporated their suggestions.  But I am tired of sitting here and having to moderate your nastiness.

Your points are perfectly valid, but if you want people to listen to you, you need to stop this.  Period.  It isn't conducive to keeping the status of this thread inside debate and outside argument.
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2395 on: July 27, 2011, 10:43:51 am »

Or you do the obvious thing and make mandatory medical examination for children, take phone-call from neighbors, list risky cult and put them under scrutiny, air prevention message, raise more fund for support group, provide free lawyers,...
Those all exist... well maybe not mandatory exams, but there are mandatory services if the child participates in public schools.  But you can't make mandatory exams for children whom you don't know exist.  If the group is birthing children in their compound and never registering them with the State... how will you ever know?

Andir, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you've never lived in an abusive household. And as such, you simply cannot understand the dynamics of one. And I don't mean that in a dismissive "It's an XXXXX thing, you wouldn't understand" sort of way, I mean you genuinely aren't going to be able to understand it. And as a result, you're free to make generalizations such as "The services are there, it's not my concern if they choose not to use them".
Then I don't know what these people expect from me.  Sympathy?  I'm simply not giving it.  Help?  Nobody as stated any way I can.  The solutions given so far are "just be a good person" which is a unique situation for each individual.  I spend each day doing what I think is right for myself and people I deal with on a regular basis.  Great.  So what?  Nobody has been helping push this conversation toward answers.  We seem to be stuck spinning our wheels on this argument over my lack of interest in the plight of someone too far for me to logically need to care about.

Did I say that?

No.  No, I did not.  This is part of cleaning up your rhetoric, bucko.  You stop putting words in the OP's mouth.
Never said you did... however:
Quote
Dude, we're not talking about implementation of solutions yet...
We aren't talking about them because we're discussing what ought be, not what is.
I keep trying to move the conversation on to solutions and away from this back and forth banter of my personal feelings on the matter ... but I keep being rejected.

What did you think it was going to do for you, hm?  I run off, and go "Oh man, he has demeaned the space I am maintaining by implying that it is nothing more than a little support group, no matter how many arguments and oppositions I have entertained here!  No fucking way.  I will immediately stop policing language in order to allow people who have actually experienced this shit to speak, because Andir's opinion is the most important."
I never said my opinion was the most important, nor did I ask for you to do anything...

No.  If you disagree with my attitudes and opinions--particularly about moderation--you can ask questions or make a case, whatever.
...
But I am tired of sitting here and having to moderate your nastiness.
I never said I do disagree with any attitudes or opinions, but I offered my dissenting opinion and was called evil and supportive ... also I'm not sure of what "nastiness" I'm being accused.

Your points are perfectly valid, but if you want people to listen to you, you need to stop this.  Period.  It isn't conducive to keeping the status of this thread inside debate and outside argument.
Stop what?  Providing solutions?  Pushing people to put forth an opinion on a solution instead of attacking me?
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RedKing

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2396 on: July 27, 2011, 11:33:37 am »

Andir, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you've never lived in an abusive household. And as such, you simply cannot understand the dynamics of one. And I don't mean that in a dismissive "It's an XXXXX thing, you wouldn't understand" sort of way, I mean you genuinely aren't going to be able to understand it. And as a result, you're free to make generalizations such as "The services are there, it's not my concern if they choose not to use them".
Then I don't know what these people expect from me.  Sympathy?  I'm simply not giving it.  Help?  Nobody as stated any way I can.  The solutions given so far are "just be a good person" which is a unique situation for each individual.  I spend each day doing what I think is right for myself and people I deal with on a regular basis.  Great.  So what?  Nobody has been helping push this conversation toward answers.  We seem to be stuck spinning our wheels on this argument over my lack of interest in the plight of someone too far for me to logically need to care about.

Bullshit. When people HAVE suggested approaches--even in a very vague, abstract way--your response was to liken it to Nazi concentration camps and accuse us all of religious persecution.

When I was getting the everliving shit kicked out of me between the ages of 4 and 6, you know what would have been nice? Teachers who actually acted on suspicions when I came to school with a broken arm and my only excuse was "I fell out of bed". The same excuse that I used for every injury, even the stab wound in my hand. But they didn't, because of a culture of "Don't meddle with someone's family life".

I would have liked a judge who actually sentenced my SOB stepfather to prison, instead of just 6 months' probation and counseling, because of a culture of "Don't interfere with a man's rule over his household".

I would have liked a counseling service that did more than just tell me "It's not your fault." Yeah, no shit, lady. Even at age 6, I knew it wasn't my fault. What I could have used was someone telling me that daydreaming in gory, violent detail about exacting revenge was not a productive course of action and was going to eat me up inside.

I would have liked a mother who wasn't so goddamned weak as to stay with the man who beat her and her child on a daily basis. But therein lies the crux of the problem, and the part that you're just never going to get, unless you live through it. I might as well ask, why didn't *I* say something myself? I had a mouth. I had social contact with people outside my home who would have helped me. I even had my own grandparents asking me if I was being abused. I lied and said no. Why? Because when you're in that situation, you are scared out of your fucking mind and everything you do is geared towards minimizing the chances of getting beaten more. The only reason I got out was one night he went too far and made my face look like a bucket of gibs, while we were living with my grandparents. "Fell out of bed" wasn't going to cut it for that one. So my grandfather took me to the doctor, and probably less than 30 seconds after we were in the car, he asked me what really happened--and something in me snapped and I told him.

Now, if it was that difficult for someone who wasn't in a cloistered environment to seek help, how much more difficult do you think it is for women and children who socially isolated because of their religious community?


You want to talk about solutions? Fine. Here's mine:

--Tougher sentencing. Sentencing for child abuse and spousal abuse in many parts of this country is a joke. It's better in general than it was in my day, but in many rural areas the judges still defer to the old notion of "a man is king of his household", even without overt religious justifications. These people need to be made an example of. If it were up to me, sexual abuse of a child would be a capital offense. We had somebody in the local news just the other day that raped and beat to death his 10-month-old stepdaughter. To me, that's a "Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200, Go Directly to the Gas Chamber" offense. Someone who is capable of that is no longer a human being in my eyes.

--Greater awareness by the public, which is a big part of what the discussion here was about. There had to be more people who suspected something and yet didn't get involved. I understand there's a fine line between concerned involvement and being a busybody, but I'd rather have false positives that can be disproved than to see more kids and women die every day because nobody wanted to get involved.

--Changes to stalking/restraining order laws that actually treat the issue with seriousness. Oh, hey...here's a woman stabbed to death by her husband five hours after calling 911 and telling them he was trying hurt her and their kids. From that story:
Quote
Amanda Mangum began dating Kenya Mangum when she was 13, her family said. In December 2007, she took out a restraining order against him, which expired after a year, according to Durham County court records.

Magruder said the family knew his sister was having problems with Kenya Mangum but didn't know the extent of the alleged abuse until after her death.

"We tried to tell her to get away, but it's easier said than done when you are a woman in fear with four children. It's hard," Rigsbee said.


Sorry if anyone thinks I'm dick-waving or ranting. I don't talk much about my early childhood, for obvious reasons. But I'm sick, I'm pissed off, and you pushed the wrong fucking berserk button.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:38:13 am by RedKing »
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2397 on: July 27, 2011, 11:50:49 am »

You can plant undercover police officer for especially suspicious groups, use recon techniques if the group shelter himself, gather information from neighbors and quitters,....

All these techniques are used here if a group is very suspicious.
So yes, if you don't declare a child it's likely you'll be found out and arrested. If it's not, those service need to be improved.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:53:33 am by Phmcw »
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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2398 on: July 27, 2011, 12:20:30 pm »

Bullshit. When people HAVE suggested approaches--even in a very vague, abstract way--your response was to liken it to Nazi concentration camps and accuse us all of religious persecution.
There was religious persecution going on.  I've outlined it.  If you do not see it I do not know what to tell you. 

[Other stuff]
I would like citations for thinking that the judges and officials think: "Don't interfere with a man's rule over his household"  Otherwise, it's speculation.  I can site you cases that prove the opposite: (5 second Google... I did not study these any further.)
http://www.wdtv.com/index.php/home/local-news/5822-man-sentenced-in-child-abuse-case (20 years)
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/nm-man-sentenced-in-child-abuse-case- (11 years)
http://www.wmctv.com/story/14995112/man-sentenced-in-child-abuse-case (10 years)
You have your case, sure.  A corrupt person in office does not mean all people in office are corrupt though.

The public awareness aspect of this discussion is moot.  These religious cults being talked about set themselves up in compounds far away from other people.  They segregate themselves and if they send someone out to get supplies... it's usually someone in "the know."  They don't send their kids to public schools where any abuse can/should be easily seen.  Drawing the conclusion that that's an option is false hope.

The other points are fair, but you'll meet opposition from people that value human life over corporal punishment.  (I personally support the death penalty under extreme circumstances.)

You can plant undercover police officer for especially suspicious groups, use recon techniques if the group shelter himself, gather information from neighbors and quitters,....

All these techniques are used here if a group is very suspicious.
So yes, if you don't declare a child it's likely you'll be found out and arrested. If it's not, those service need to be improved.
This already happens... if they suspect some illegal activity.  Fat chance on getting someone in though.  It's not like they answer the door and let you in because you drove two hours to get to the compound "cause you heard they do things your way."  Nobody outside the compound hears anything.  As stated though... these people usually wall up in some compound many miles away from cities and towns while conducting their activities.  This isn't like Europe where most towns and villages are rather close.  You simply can't compare Belgium to some place like Marathon, Texas or Kit Carson, Colorado.   There are some places in the US where you can live 30-50+ miles away from authority or any other people for that matter.  Neighbors at that point don't even see your place, let alone know what's going on.

Edit:  Also, how do you expect to discover a child that's in this compound that's not declared?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:24:18 pm by Andir »
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2399 on: July 27, 2011, 12:21:39 pm »

Okay, I'd like to open this post by first saying that nothing I'm about to say has anything to do with your dissenting opinion, Andir. I welcome it, and I would love to have a calm discussion about whether or not a person in an abusive household can freely choose to leave it, among other things that you've brought up in this thread. But right now, I'm far too annoyed with your behavior to do that. Again, this post is about how you've been treating other posters in this thread, and how I believe you've failed to present arguments in good faith. I'll be happy to come back to the disagreement you have with Nadaka, but not until we resolve this and I think it's possible for us to discuss things without resorting to personal attacks, or even including personal criticism as part of a larger post, because I don't think that the latter is going to be easily distinguished (certainly, I haven't been clear enough for you to be able to make that distinction so far).

Secondly, I'd like to apologize.
Quote
Dude, we're not talking about implementation of solutions yet...
We aren't talking about them because we're discussing what ought be, not what is.
Both of these posts were wrong for a couple of reasons. First of all, I don't really have the authority to dictate what this thread is or is not about; only Vector may do that. Plus, I've realized that these were misleading, and I'm sorry both for being unclear and for not having thought through my arguments well enough before posting. I'll get to what I really ought to have said below, but for now just know that I regret making these posts.

The rest of this post is spoilered, because I don't want to take up more room than I have to and I want to make a very clear and obvious division between where I'm criticizing Andir because I believe he's acting poorly, and where I criticize his arguments because I think they're poorly constructed.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

EDIT: Wow, only 3 ninjas. Gonna have to read them.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:25:10 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.
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