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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870347 times)

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2010 on: July 22, 2011, 10:51:41 am »

I can't imagine the codified law that defines hate speech.  It would be upwards of 1000+ pages single spaced front and back.  You'd have to define intent, structure of sentences...
http://www.rtdh.eu/pdf/2001321.pdf here's ours. I hope you can read French.

Because I like my freedom of speech without major loopholes that slimy politicians can sneak through.  I don't think the law would do anything to attack the low, general level, and anyone with enough money could get through or use it greatly to their advantage.

You distrust your political system even more than me.
I think you can have a sane government, but maybe you're right that, in the US, you should achieve that first.
Also true for Nadaka
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Siquo

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2011 on: July 22, 2011, 10:53:14 am »

Because not understanding rhetoric and the power dynamics thereof is not part of the generalisation that is autism?
It's not about power dynamics, it's about (lack of) context and subtle meanings. I'm really bad at getting sarcasm, double meanings, yes-that-means-no-or-vice-versa etc. Perhaps I'm falsely attributing that to autism, but as it's a spectrum (dis)ability, and I notice the same in my diagnosed Asperger brother, I presumed that they are symptoms or properties of the autistic spectrum.

And in context of what Darvi/Nadaka just said: How are you going to separate "power rhetorics" from normal speech?
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Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2012 on: July 22, 2011, 11:00:27 am »

Basically, If your society is so damaged that those law are used against legitimate claim (such as claims backed with strong evidence), then those laws won't make it worse. You'll already be in such trouble that hate law would be passed and in a good road toward a dark age.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2013 on: July 22, 2011, 11:02:25 am »

Yes.  The US is currently facing so many problems that I wouldn't trust a single new restriction on speech.  They have plenty of other things that would help the country more, and maybe after all those things, we'd be okay with a new law like that.  But in a country with a disappearing middle class, I sure as hell don't trust it.


It's not about power dynamics, it's about (lack of) context and subtle meanings. I'm really bad at getting sarcasm, double meanings, yes-that-means-no-or-vice-versa etc. Perhaps I'm falsely attributing that to autism, but as it's a spectrum (dis)ability, and I notice the same in my diagnosed Asperger brother, I presumed that they are symptoms or properties of the autistic spectrum.

And in context of what Darvi/Nadaka just said: How are you going to separate "power rhetorics" from normal speech?

I don't see lack of context and subtle meanings here.  The difference between a friend calling you an asshole and a random person on the street holding a gun calling you an asshole is very different.

The lack of context might better be called "unconfronted privilege," but that isn't really an autistic-exclusive issue, either.  It's kind of standard for people who have power over others without understanding precisely how.  It's a context many, many people have trouble grasping, and not considered a sign of disability at all.  Perhaps it should be, but it is considered a complex behavior far beyond the low functioning of the autism spectrum.  Of course, this is why I know about it--"normal" people write essays on it for each other.

When a privileged group insults a member of an unprivileged group for no reason but their belonging to the group, that is the power dynamic at work.
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Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2014 on: July 22, 2011, 11:06:49 am »

@Vector : Fair enough. But I'm interested in your opinion of our implementation of those law. Do you speak French?
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2015 on: July 22, 2011, 11:08:04 am »

I can't imagine the codified law that defines hate speech.  It would be upwards of 1000+ pages single spaced front and back.  You'd have to define intent, structure of sentences...
http://www.rtdh.eu/pdf/2001321.pdf here's ours. I hope you can read French.
I cannot, but with so little content in the law (even though it's over 20 pages!) I imagine there is a great portion of it is left up to a interpretation by a judge or judges.  That's where these laws lose reason with me.  I would interpret a saying differently than you would.  We would likely vote differently on what is determined to be hate speech.  For one, calling you something like a whore or a bigot I would not consider hateful speech.  It's an opinion.  If said person was beating you with a stick or spitting on you at the time, I may judge otherwise.  That's where I draw my distinction toward hate speech.  If it involves physical action and harm, I consider it hateful.  Otherwise, it's strictly opinionated garbage.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2016 on: July 22, 2011, 11:11:19 am »

@Vector : Fair enough. But I'm interested in your opinion of our implementation of those law. Do you speak French?

Yeah, I do.  I'll try to take a look at some point.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2017 on: July 22, 2011, 11:12:25 am »

It's not the law per say, but an explanation of it by one of the advisor of our "cour de cassation", the ultimate authority in the interpretation of the law in Belgium. The law in itself is incomprehensible for untrained persons.
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Nadaka

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2018 on: July 22, 2011, 11:13:08 am »

Phmcw: Wait? You trust your political system? I don't think that is healthy. There is no perfect government because it will always be implemented by imperfect people. A better government is one more open and more impervious to corruption and abuse. The US government has failed in that regard, but so has Europe.

Siquo: Maybe I am out of the loop, but what are "power rhetorics"? I suspect that they fall under protected free expression that should be challenged and fought not with punishment but by deconstruction, refutation and education (edit: plus the occasional bit of mockery).

Pseudo Edit: I think vector answered that question, and my answer still stands.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 11:16:32 am by Nadaka »
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2019 on: July 22, 2011, 11:26:58 am »

I don't trust my political system, but I think it's able to handle basic ethical problems. And I trust the fact that Belgian society will react, if it abuse it (actually, European opinion is reacting to these abuses).
I think openness is very important, but I'm convinced that racism and hate-speech are more likely to spread via instrumentation by a political cause (such as the UMP use of xenophobia to cover their glaring economical failures and lousy policies) than via personal conviction.
A lot of those laws are purposely targeting instrumentation of xenophobia. 
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Andir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2020 on: July 22, 2011, 12:09:11 pm »

I don't trust my political system, but I think it's able to handle basic ethical problems.
But I consider restricting free thought as an ethical blunder.  Whenever you have to tell someone to shut-up, you've already failed to educate them.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2021 on: July 22, 2011, 01:16:58 pm »

Chapelle has this wonderful sketch about a blind, black KKK member. The shit that comes out of his mouth is magically transformed into comedy gold because of his skin colour. That's the kind of inequality I can't understand. If I can't say it, why can he? Because of skin colour? Discrimination!
Do you not understand the idea of self deprecation?  At all?  You're free to be self deprecating, perhaps making references to your own race to the same extent as black people are (except you're implying that only nonwhite people can be made fun of).
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2022 on: July 22, 2011, 01:53:49 pm »

Hmmm, the problem here is that hateful speech and distribution of someone else opinion, or opinion that may be considered hateful under some condition is not the same thing.
But before I goes on, I'd like to know one thing. In the US, or in the country where you live, is it forbidden to insult someone or to spread false and harmful information about him?

In the US? Knowingly false and demonstrably harmful falls under libel and slander and is civilly but not criminally actionable. It is almost impossible to pursue if you don't have a really expensive lawyer. In the case of most hate speech, because the person saying it actually believes it, it doesn't count. It is also difficult to show harm in the case of hate speech because it is almost entirely social and emotional harm rather than physical or financial harm.

?

You can't merely sue because something is considered "offensive" or because you disagree with it, or because you feel hurt by it. That would be completely unmanageable and you know or should know that.

That is ... so far from the definition and enforcement of the law of defamation I don't even know where to begin....

Tell you what, here's some basic, generalized reading on this stuff. This isn't definitive by any means and you could never use this source in a courtroom but it's a start....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_infliction_of_emotional_distress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Nadaka

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2023 on: July 22, 2011, 01:56:40 pm »

Truean? Nothing I said disagrees with you there.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2024 on: July 22, 2011, 02:12:08 pm »

"In the US? Knowingly false and demonstrably harmful falls under libel and slander and is civilly but not criminally actionable."
Depends on the individual speech or action and if the prosecutor is inclined and able to prosecute under criminal menacing or other statutes. This is highly fact specific. Burning a cross in someone's front yard can lead to a criminal charge, especially if this person is black. Threats of violence can also be criminal. Insulting speech alone is rarely if ever criminal. If you commit a crime while saying that, you're risking a hate crime classification though and an enhanced sentence.
http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2009/12/01/news/mj1961207.txt

"It is almost impossible to pursue if you don't have a really expensive lawyer."
If you have a decent case, you can often get legal aid to do it or there are lots of lawyers who were nerds as kids with a grudge against bullies who do this pro bono. Even without that, it isn't THAT expensive if you have a good case. Also, I know how to make legal, tax preparation and book keeping services unbelievably affordable for every single person in the US, but I won't do it because people are bastards and would screw me over for doing it. Private industry could do it for $25/month. Public taxes could do it for $2.73/year. (Per person of course)

"In the case of most hate speech, because the person saying it actually believes it, it doesn't count."
No.... "Actually believing it" has never been a defense. If it is actually true, then truth is a defense, but then you have to actually prove the truth of the matter. Good luck. If for the sake of argument only, I really truly believe you have an STD and go around saying so, that will not stop you from winning a suit against me for slander. You bear the risk of your statements being false.

"It is also difficult to show harm in the case of hate speech because it is almost entirely social and emotional harm rather than physical or financial harm."
Granted, damages (money) is the hardest thing to show. Piss off the jury enough and you might be able to get there. It is a question of fact though.

Also here's an outline I whipped up on the fly: This is just common law and shouldn't be used because it varies state to state....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And covering all bases: God I love this comic....
http://xkcd.com/246/
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:51:38 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.
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