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[Willfor]

I'm not angry at an idea of a god. I get easily angry at people doing things or talking about something they have no reason to believe in in the first place, and expect us to respect it.

This got the logical portion of my brain working; How can the idea of a god not anger you if the transmission of the idea is what angers you? In your mind there is no reason to believe in a god, so the very transmission of this idea (and thus, the idea itself) to you is the source of your anger, by your own reasoning.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

True Askot, but then there's also Jesus saying that the Old Laws are cast down.

does that mean everything in the old testament should be disregarded?

i'm hesitant to post this, i worry it might come off wrong, so here's a little disclaimer. i'm not trying to tear down your religion or the bible or anything, i just curious. what is the method, if any, christians use to read and interpret a work that often objectively contradicts itself...

[freeformschooler]

what is the method, if any, christians use to read and interpret a work that often objectively contradicts itself...

I could make a lot of jokes but the real answer is that it depends on the Christian

[Virex]

True Askot, but then there's also Jesus saying that the Old Laws are cast down.

does that mean everything in the old testament should be disregarded?

Depends on if you see the whole old testament as a set of laws, or you think that it only applies to explicit commandments and not the general ideas and stories.

[Hiiri]

I'm not angry at an idea of a god. I get easily angry at people doing things or talking about something they have no reason to believe in in the first place, and expect us to respect it.

This got the logical portion of my brain working; How can the idea of a god not anger you if the transmission of the idea is what angers you? In your mind there is no reason to believe in a god, so the very transmission of this idea (and thus, the idea itself) to you is the source of your anger, by your own reasoning.

Transmission of the idea and the idea itself are two different things.

Transmission of the ideas that have no basis on the real world is... lack of a better word.. silly. And.. silliness.. is what the world needs least right now.

('scuse me, if I understood the word "transmission" wrong. English isn't my native)

[Bauglir]

Bauglir, I would not call your distaste for homosexuality a “failing” or a flaw. You are under no obligation to be otherwise.

There is plenty of stuff that I do not like, and I am not ashamed of it. I also do not abuse people because they do stuff that I do not like, because I value personal freedom above those things that I regard with distaste.

Well, here's the thing. I get where you're coming from, but as far as I'm concerned it is a flaw. I am most definitely under an obligation to treat other people with the respect they deserve; my kneejerk reaction here is irrelevant to that, except that it makes it somewhat difficult and unpleasant for me to do so. I'd rather not have to deal with it at all, given that I can't let it affect how I treat others. For me, it's pointless irritation and mental dissonance, and that is definitely a flaw; but it's worth it to know that its consequences are constrained to me, as obnoxiously angsty as that sounds.

[Willfor]

I'm not angry at an idea of a god. I get easily angry at people doing things or talking about something they have no reason to believe in in the first place, and expect us to respect it.

This got the logical portion of my brain working; How can the idea of a god not anger you if the transmission of the idea is what angers you? In your mind there is no reason to believe in a god, so the very transmission of this idea (and thus, the idea itself) to you is the source of your anger, by your own reasoning.

Transmission of the idea and the idea itself are two different things.

Transmission of the ideas that have no basis on the real world is... lack of a better word.. silly. And.. silliness.. is what the world needs least right now.

('scuse me, if I understood the word "transmission" wrong. English isn't my native)

You have the meaning of the word right.

However, how do you get the idea if it is not transmitted to you? You don't actually HAVE the idea unless it is given to you. Unless you came up with it yourself. The idea, doesn't exist to you, until it is given to you somehow.

Religious ideas aren't something we are born with, it's something we are given.

[Strife26]

Freeforum's got the right idea here. For me, I take it as "take what is useful", but I'd believe that even if it wasn't in the new testament. Not much for the Bible as a source of truth, myself. Crapy Lutherean, I am.


 

I'm not angry at an idea of a god. I get easily angry at people doing things or talking about something they have no reason to believe in in the first place, and expect us to respect it.

The problem is that belief *is* belief. It exists. Why can't I get angry at people talking about something they have no reason to justify not existing and expect me to respect it? Term's the mystery of fate, methinks. In the Apostle's Creed somewhere.

[G-Flex]

i just do not believe that being gay is a natural thing and that people are born that way

Er, why not?

For that matter, you're making two completely different statements here:

• Being gay isn't natural.
• Being gay isn't something you're born with.

These are two different statements of fact. First off, how do you even define which human behavior is "natural" and what isn't? What is that even supposed to mean? There's no meaningful distinction between "natural" and "artificial" human behavior. Secondly, homosexual behavior does occur in the natural non-human world, even in members of species that are usually strictly heterosexual in terms of behavior.

Third: If you don't think people are born gay, do you think people are born straight, or that their sexual orientation in general just isn't decided that early on?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

True Askot, but then there's also Jesus saying that the Old Laws are cast down .

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Anyway, I came across an article that is somewhat relevant to the discussion at hand. You will likely find it shocking, and those of you who recognize the local news website will find it even more shocking.

Pastor and/or Cult Leader executes 4-year old on camera because of "exhibiting gay behavior" and murders his mother later.

I mean, what the fuck. This is crazy from start to finish. I've been to Durham many times, it's right next to my city. This isn't some crazy Deep South backwater, it's a small city in its own right! This sort of thing shouldn't happen there, but it did.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

i just do not believe that being gay is a natural thing and that people are born that way

Er, why not?

For that matter, you're making two completely different statements here:

• Being gay isn't natural.
• Being gay isn't something you're born with.

These are two different statements of fact. First off, how do you even define which human behavior is "natural" and what isn't? What is that even supposed to mean? There's no meaningful distinction between "natural" and "artificial" human behavior. Secondly, homosexual behavior does occur in the natural non-human world, even in members of species that are usually strictly heterosexual in terms of behavior.

hum... the language i speak is very close to it's latin origins, so to me english words of latin origins often sound closer to their original etymology than their english common usage.

Old French, from Latin nātūrālis, from nātus, the perfect participle of nāscor (“I am born”).

Third: If you don't think people are born gay, do you think people are born straight, or that their sexual orientation in general just isn't decided that early on?

the second.

this should dispel any misunderstandings

[Vector]

I'm sorry, but this is not a place where ranting against religion en masse is permitted.  The policies of some particular group or organization--fine.  All people raised in the Christian faith, or any other whatsoever--no.  Stop that.  I've read the commandments of satanism and they mostly dovetailed with mainstream morality.  Don't make silly assumptions.

Call me "fucking stupid" if you like, but I am a mildly religious liberal.  So if you need someone to attack, come attack me.  Don't attack the people who are coming here to learn and find out what we have to say.

Oh, and finally:

The union of the mathematician with the poet, fervor with measure, passion with correctness, this surely is the ideal.

Or, dare I say, faith coupled with rationality?


If you want to start a religion-bashing thread, well... as I said, elsewhere.  The topic jumps a lot here, but there are a few debates which I refuse to entertain.

I'll also add that people should feel free to come here and talk about their own experiences with sexuality, disability, women's lib, whatever they feel is necessary in that arena.  That's one of the reasons why I'm moderating this thread.  It is largely for news, but if someone needs help then I'm not going to turn them away.

Of course, when one feels ready, the greater forum is a better place to discuss those things in general.  The "time that you're prepared" is up to you =)

[Nadaka]

True Askot, but then there's also Jesus saying that the Old Laws are cast down .

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Anyway, I came across an article that is somewhat relevant to the discussion at hand. You will likely find it shocking, and those of you who recognize the local news website will find it even more shocking.

Pastor and/or Cult Leader executes 4-year old on camera because of "exhibiting gay behavior" and murders his mother later.

I mean, what the fuck. This is crazy from start to finish. I've been to Durham many times, it's right next to my city. This isn't some crazy Deep South backwater, it's a small city in its own right! This sort of thing shouldn't happen there, but it did.

I am not at all shocked or surprised, that kind of thing is far more common than you know.

[Tyg13]

VECTOR TURNED ME GAY! BURN THE WITCH!

[Truean]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kinda late, but about that bigotry as a choice tangent. I have to admit that I *do* feel kind of squicky about male homosexuality. To be fair, a lot of sexual acts, regardless of the genders involved, have a similar response, but for whatever reason the whole category of male homosexuality, even as simple as a kiss, makes me feel really uncomfortable. And hey, my own reaction of disgust DOES give me some rights. I mean, it gives me the right to not participate in a homosexual relationship. Actually, that's about it.

Because, really, that reaction is my failing. Not anybody else's. Nobody else needs to change to accommodate my flaws, and nobody, nobody, has the right to demand that another person bury himself (or herself; stupid English language) just because, "I'm offended". Sure, you've got a right not to be offended. That's fair. But that right is utterly and completely insignificant beside a person's right to be a person.

You've got two options; you can either change yourself so you're not offended anymore (which, to my shame, I've never yet been able to manage), or you can suck it up and accept that you're not the arbiter of all that is right and good in this world. I don't know what part of my background makes me dislike the concept, but it sure as hell wasn't Truean's fault, or Tyg13's, or any of the many, many other people who would be hurt if my instincts ran the world. So you know what, fuck those instincts. They're not helping anyone.

Might be a bit of a rant, but eh. I felt I needed to say it.

EDIT: HOLY SHIT GUYS, 21 NEW REPLIES. THERE'S GONNA BE LIKE 20 MORE BY THE TIME I'VE CAUGHT UP.

EDIT: Oh just one. Wow.

Bauglir, I would not call your distaste for homosexuality a “failing” or a flaw. You are under no obligation to be otherwise.

There is plenty of stuff that I do not like, and I am not ashamed of it. I also do not abuse people because they do stuff that I do not like, because I value personal freedom above those things that I regard with distaste.

Well, here's the thing. I get where you're coming from, but as far as I'm concerned it is a flaw. I am most definitely under an obligation to treat other people with the respect they deserve; my kneejerk reaction here is irrelevant to that, except that it makes it somewhat difficult and unpleasant for me to do so. I'd rather not have to deal with it at all, given that I can't let it affect how I treat others. For me, it's pointless irritation and mental dissonance, and that is definitely a flaw; but it's worth it to know that its consequences are constrained to me, as obnoxiously angsty as that sounds.

Holy shit, honesty, o mystery that seems to actually exist.... I respect you more for just admitting it and thinking about it instead of just the normal, "I think gay sucks and you suck for being gay."

Yeah though, that feeling that he's talking about is unfortunately all too common and hell if I know how to do shit about it. You have any idea how weird it is going on a date when you're gay knowing that people will be thinking this? Part of you doesn't want to offend anyone; part of you is offended that it offends people and still another part of you is scared you'll be beaten half to death. [shrugs].

I was lucky enough to have a serious boyfriend for over two years and he had no compunctions about holding hands (primarily because he was 6 ft 4 and no one ever knew he was gay/he was large enough to be a problem if you fought him). I on the other hand was terrified. We literally drove 4 towns over to go on a date and I still wasn't comfortable. Strangely, a girl friend of his helped me pass as a female and go out with him once like that. Apparently, I was convincing cause no one batted an eye at the PDA then. [sigh]

Summation: Its a tough thing determining how to incorporate homosexuality into a respectable place in civilized society when it was completely taboo for decades. Wish I knew how. How do I participate in a society where some people are entirely uncomfortable with me....?

True Askot, but then there's also Jesus saying that the Old Laws are cast down .

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Anyway, I came across an article that is somewhat relevant to the discussion at hand. You will likely find it shocking, and those of you who recognize the local news website will find it even more shocking.

Pastor and/or Cult Leader executes 4-year old on camera because of "exhibiting gay behavior" and murders his mother later.

I mean, what the fuck. This is crazy from start to finish. I've been to Durham many times, it's right next to my city. This isn't some crazy Deep South backwater, it's a small city in its own right! This sort of thing shouldn't happen there, but it did.

I am not at all shocked or surprised, that kind of thing is far more common than you know.

Unfortunately yes. Homosexuals in the US get assaulted, seriously injured and in some cases killed far more often than people think. The fact that it happened to a four year old is a little shocking but yeah.... Matthew Shepard wasn't especially shocking because they tortured and killed him, that was bad enough, but because they pretended to be gay, went to a gay bar, lured him outside and then did it.... Downright predatory.... I mean shit, if you can't be gay in a gay bar then where the crap can you be?

On Religion:
This is a hard topic because a lot of backlash against gays comes from here and I've felt a crapton of it. It's hard not to be bitter. Shit I've been told I'm an abomination to God.... I once sobbingly came out to a therapist in a therapy session and her response was, in an all too comforting voice:

"You're such a nice boy, I'm so sorry, I really wish you weren't going to hell."

Keep in mind this was a trained psychiatrist at a university.... I just sorta walked out numb and didn't come back.

Still, I don't find insulting religion to be productive. Fact is, I know the bible better than most Christians do. I can point out Leviticus 18:22 and all the other anti gay passages. Its just more constructive to point out, "I thought we all were the children of God...." They tend to squirm when that one comes out.