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[Fenrir]

If we are a product of our genetics and environment, I am forced to wonder if anything is really a choice, as it would seem to be reasonable to suppose that every decision we make is the result of how our brains are configured and the experiences that the brain has had. Anything else would imply that there is some ghost within us that is pulling arbitrary decisions out of the ether.

That might be a little too much meta-reasoning to remain on topic.

[Truean]

... That can't be healthy.

Probably not, but unfortunately I'd rather live my life hoping for something that doesn't exist and only having secret relationships than have pretty much my entire family shun me for being gay.

On being in the closet:
From personal experience, I understand where you are coming from and it most certainly does suck. I learned to live a double a life and lie very convincingly. I wouldn't come out until you are financially independent, which is what PFLAG recommends to reduce the impact of getting disowned if you ever do come out.

You slowly learn that there are some people worth being open with and women will become great friends. There are some pitfalls to watch out for with this. There's the chatty cathy who can't shut up, much less keep a secret. There's the idealist who thinks she knows better and that because gay people shouldn't have to put up with this shit, will out you with the best of intentions. Finally there are straight out bitches like my sister who blackmailed and extorted me (ORC 2905.11 Felony of the 3rd degree). You have to be careful who you trust, but there are wonderful people out there who will make good friends and can keep your secret.

Note that I talked about women, and this is because they tend to be more understanding than men. First, there is no sexual tension between the gay and the girl, at least from the gay (watch out for people trying to "turn" you). Second, many guys are a mixture of terrified and utterly pissed you might come onto them, this can be bad, very bad. There are straight guys out there who are smart enough and secure enough in their masculinity not to be threatened by your being gay, but they are unfortunately a minority.

It's a weird thing, and I've even had friends pretend to be that kind of girlfriend with me a few times to maintain the cover.

Now that I think about it, I'm not so sure being bigoted is a choice either. I've grown up around bigots all my life (thankfully not my direct family), and it seems bigotry towards homosexuality usually comes from finding the whole idea innately gross or appalling -- the bible stuff is usually just a way for people to validate that feeling. Now, being outwardly bigoted, that's a choice.

I was raised as a bigot and my mom and dad still are. My dad doesn't like black people, calls the president the N word when its just family around, thinks all Muslims are terrorists and should be shot (all of them), thinks all gays are pedophiles, believes everything he hears on fox news or talk radio, but knows enough to keep quiet in certain instances. When you are a very small child and your entire family is that way you emulate the behavior. I think upon hearing a 5 year old use the N word, most black people wouldn't be mad at the kid, but rather wonder who taught him that word.

Now I grew up and made a conscious choice and effort not to be that way. Granted, there can be a predisposition to be bigoted if your parents are, but it's something you can get over. It does take a crapton of work though.

[freeformschooler]

I've got to call you out on that, MSH. Don't be bigoted against Christians, it hurts just about as much as anything they do, fueling the fires and all.

Also, good God man. Trying to make a religious person "see reason?!" You don't see anything wrong with that?

Strife, either one paragraph is sarcasm and I can't tell which, or neither are and they're contradictory.

To clarify, you just said not to be bigoted against Christians, who are religious people, and then said something easily interpreted as bigoted against religious people, in general.

[Kay12]

I know many religious people, and I don't believe Bible makes people hate people. It may reinforce any love or hate, though. I know more people who use the Bible as a reason to love thy neighbor than I know people who use the Bible as a reason to hate gay people. I guess both points of view require some kind of selectiveness from the reader.

However, my local church is almost notoriously liberal, so my observations on different groups of religious people may be wrong.

[Zrk2]

What I've never understood is why people would think it's a "choice" when seriously, who would "choose" hatred and bigotry over a normal life?

Because the people who think that believe that non-heterosexuals are people who love to live in sin against God and the only lifestyle that is difficult or persecuted is their particular brand of True Christians™.

I've got to call you out on that, MSH. Don't be bigoted against Christians, it hurts just about as much as anything they do, fueling the fires and all.

Also, good God man. Trying to make a religious person "see reason?!" You don't see anything wrong with that?

Sometimes the irony is just to painful to be cognizant of.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-pro-gay-marriage-arguments-fighting-with-crazy-people/

Revelant? Maybe
Useful? Probably not
Appropriate? Ditto
Funny? Yeah

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I've got to call you out on that, MSH. Don't be bigoted against Christians, it hurts just about as much as anything they do, fueling the fires and all.

Perhaps I should clarify: I don't care about what Christians do so long as they don't try to hurt people, but as soon as that happens I'm going to be on the scene. The inequality of homosexuals in the USA is because of some sects of Christianity, and that is what I mean by "True Christian" (Not me considering them to be the only true Christians, they considering themselves to be the only true Christians, hence the trademark symbol.).

Also, good God man. Trying to make a religious person "see reason?!" You don't see anything wrong with that?

I mean about his bigotry towards homosexuality. I don't care if he believes in a god or not unless he comes to me about it of his own accord.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

just to clarify, my previous post does not reflect my actual stance on the subject, i do not think homosexuality is a disease or deviant in any way. if it is a defect in any way, it is one in the same sense that heterosexuality is a defect, and the perfect state would be a sexual orientation where one is unbiased towards any gender and picks his partner based on an individual's specific traits

i just do not believe that being gay is a natural thing and that people are born that way, that's why i'd rather argue that it's a choice, and that it's a perfectly fine choice, than to argue that one is born that way and nothing can be done about it.
because being a christian or an atheist or a muslim are not natural things either, and nobody is arguing that they are, the argument for homosexuality being innate sounds to me like "hey, it's not this guy's fault that he is gay", and i think we should argue for "there's nothing wrong with being gay, you can be gay if you want to"

[SalmonGod]

That's been my experience with homophobia as well.  It's really really easy to break down all of their arguments for pretending to be opposed to homosexuality on moral grounds.  After you break down all of their arguments, they will resort to the emotional appeal... that it's just gross to them, to the point that they can't tolerate it. 

There's nothing left to say after that.  You can point out what a weak excuse for hatred that is.  Is it commonly seen as justified to hate someone for any other trait that one finds revolting?  How about smoking?  Disgusting habit, which generates unpleasant sensations and health risks for surrounding non-smokers.  We might encourage them to change, but do we force them?  Do we hate them?  No?  Why?...... is it because we know that it's choice?  Because there's no deep-rooted fear in us that we may one day find ourselves to be something we find disgusting? 

But that's just asking for a fight.

[Strife26]

I've got to call you out on that, MSH. Don't be bigoted against Christians, it hurts just about as much as anything they do, fueling the fires and all.

Also, good God man. Trying to make a religious person "see reason?!" You don't see anything wrong with that?

Strife, either one paragraph is sarcasm and I can't tell which, or neither are and they're contradictory.

To clarify, you just said not to be bigoted against Christians, who are religious people, and then said something easily interpreted as bigoted against religious people, in general.

My idea (and I'm not sure how well I got it across) with second line is that one can't both expect people not to try to get others to share their belief, then go about trying to change other people's belief.

[Hiiri]

I know many religious people, and I don't believe Bible makes people hate people. It may reinforce any love or hate, though. I know more people who use the Bible as a reason to love thy neighbor than I know people who use the Bible as a reason to hate gay people. I guess both points of view require some kind of selectiveness from the reader.

However, my local church is almost notoriously liberal, so my observations on different groups of religious people may be wrong.

Conservative religiosity is fucking "evil". Liberal religiosity is fucking stupid. (Yes, I had to use amplifying words for this)

I'll just quote Steven Weinberg here: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."

[Truean]

I've got to call you out on that, MSH. Don't be bigoted against Christians, it hurts just about as much as anything they do, fueling the fires and all.

Also, good God man. Trying to make a religious person "see reason?!" You don't see anything wrong with that?

Strife, either one paragraph is sarcasm and I can't tell which, or neither are and they're contradictory.

To clarify, you just said not to be bigoted against Christians, who are religious people, and then said something easily interpreted as bigoted against religious people, in general.

My idea (and I'm not sure how well I got it across) with second line is that one can't both expect people not to try to get others to share their belief, then go about trying to change other people's belief.

If you try to change other people's mind, then they will try to change yours?

[Kay12]

I know many religious people, and I don't believe Bible makes people hate people. It may reinforce any love or hate, though. I know more people who use the Bible as a reason to love thy neighbor than I know people who use the Bible as a reason to hate gay people. I guess both points of view require some kind of selectiveness from the reader.

However, my local church is almost notoriously liberal, so my observations on different groups of religious people may be wrong.

Conservative religiosity is fucking "evil". Liberal religiosity is fucking stupid. (Yes, I had to use amplifying words for this)

I'll just quote Steven Weinberg here: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."

Stupid or not, at least they're not hurting everybody and are just attending their own ceremonies peacefully.

[Fenrir]

I know many religious people, and I don't believe Bible makes people hate people. It may reinforce any love or hate, though. I know more people who use the Bible as a reason to love thy neighbor than I know people who use the Bible as a reason to hate gay people. I guess both points of view require some kind of selectiveness from the reader.

However, my local church is almost notoriously liberal, so my observations on different groups of religious people may be wrong.

Conservative religiosity is fucking "evil". Liberal religiosity is fucking stupid. (Yes, I had to use amplifying words for this)

I'll just quote Steven Weinberg here: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."

If they are doing evil, then they are not really good people, now are they? Not every Christian is an evil bastard, and religion did not spring up from the void to corrupt the minds of mankind. It is as much a human construct as anything else, so only evil people would use it for evil purposes.

[Tyg13]

snip

I don't know what to say, but thanks for the advice. I have enough to deal with in my life, to the point where this whole gay factor almost pisses me off. I've got plenty of things that are going against me and making my life difficult, and the last thing I needed was one more thing that set me apart from everyone else. But I'll get older one day, and I'll learn to move on. I guess one of the biggest hurdles in coming out and everything is probably the fact that you can't go back. Things will never be the same, and what absolutely mortifies me is having a conversation with someone I know well and having them treat me like I'm a different person. Like the old me is gone somehow.

Maybe I shouldn't dump my emotional baggage here, so I'll limit this to this one post, but Truean, just... Thanks.

[Truean]

What's really funny is that gay people can be religious too and we often belong to religions that don't have a problem with it, like Unitarian Universalism or Buddhism or most religions that aren't the three abrahamic ones.

Nobody wants to respect the choice of those religions to perform ceremonies for gay couples, they do however, want to force those religions NOT do/perform gay weddings.

That's the way the whole religion opposition to gay marriage falls apart as bullshit "freedom of religion" grounds. If I wanted to belong to a church that would allow gay marriage, that church is forced not to by the state....

"Freedom of my religion, not yours...."  [headdesk]

but Truean, just... Thanks.

My Pleasure. I think you can continue to post here, but if you're more comfortable, may I direct you to the "Things that made you sad, today thread."