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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 856754 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1305 on: July 08, 2011, 12:06:20 am »

Chaos is what most people equate with the word anarchy, when they do not mean the same thing.  Anarchists constantly have to point this out.

Anarchy literally means "without rulers".  It does not mean "without structure" or "anything goes".  As a political concept, this may have broad implications, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word.  Lack of rulership is also the ONLY feature that is universal to all categories of anarchist thought, which otherwise vary drastically.
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1306 on: July 08, 2011, 01:32:37 am »

At least here in Finland anarchists (or some particular subgroup of them) are connected by bad PR. How the heck is setting fire to railway equipment going to make people share their views?
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1307 on: July 08, 2011, 01:37:18 am »

I could basically be considered a social anarchist, though I hesitate to place myself in any further subset.  I don't like the way the wikipedia article just says "rejects private property" without implying the distinction that most don't mean that as a rejection of all forms of private ownership.

Culture can have it's own problems, but social anarchism is a thousands times worse. It's like giving everyone the free pass to go nuts.

And that is actually the social anarchist's problem with modern culture, as it permits a lucky handful of people a free pass to go nuts, and everyone else is at their mercy.  Our stance is that no one should have a free pass to go nuts, and even so, everyone having that free pass would be better than the current situation, as it would at least suggest a more level playing field.

Lack of control doesn't result in a "more level playing field". Try saying that to people who are born poor and die poor with no opportunity to improve their station in life.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1308 on: July 08, 2011, 02:49:24 am »

At least here in Finland anarchists (or some particular subgroup of them) are connected by bad PR. How the heck is setting fire to railway equipment going to make people share their views?

Yeah, the only activity most people think of in connection with anarchy is riots, and the media intentionally encourages this.  While I do think that type of direct action has its place, I don't necessarily agree with all or even most such activities.  They are often incorrectly attributed to anarchists.  Finally, they are definitely not the only thing anarchists do to promote their views.  Try looking up Food Not Bombs, for example.  Also keep in mind that there is a pretty broad spectrum of differing styles of anarchy, with some very strong disagreements between them.

Lack of control doesn't result in a "more level playing field". Try saying that to people who are born poor and die poor with no opportunity to improve their station in life.

I really don't understand what you're trying to say....  You're pointing out the dysfunctional nature of society's current structure as supposed evidence against an ideology that opposes society's current structure.  It makes no sense.


Anyway, I really doubt Vector wants this to derail onto a major anarchy tangent.  I just wanted to correct a couple misconceptions.
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1309 on: July 08, 2011, 03:39:39 am »

I am aware that not all anarchists are violent or destructive. However, the only groups that have (again, here in Finland) labeled themselves as anarchists have been angry guys trying to set fires and break stuff. I don't understand the political purpose of that. Generally though, I don't think anarchism is misguided, at least not misguided enough to label anarchism as a failed ideology and anarchists as idiots.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1310 on: July 08, 2011, 04:00:31 am »

There is no political purpose, that's why the type of people you're typing about are sometimes called Pseudo-Anarchists: Individuals who use the popular culture meaning of Anarchism as an excuse for indulging in their violently destructive urges.

You might find genuine anarchists who employ forceful destruction of the state, but that is only sometimes the case. For example, you have Pacifist Anarchism, which advocates a strictly peaceful and willing dismantling of the nation-state.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have Insurrectionist Anarchism, which is more than willing to employ a sort of "anti-revolution" (destroy the state, replace with nothing) in the name of anarchism.

It's a surprisingly varied political philosophy for how few people subscribe to any form of anarchism, or at least how few appear to.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 05:32:46 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1311 on: July 08, 2011, 04:52:59 am »

I am aware that not all anarchists are violent or destructive. However, the only groups that have (again, here in Finland) labeled themselves as anarchists have been angry guys trying to set fires and break stuff. I don't understand the political purpose of that. Generally though, I don't think anarchism is misguided, at least not misguided enough to label anarchism as a failed ideology and anarchists as idiots.

Non-violent anarchists are not given any air-time. Crazy bomb throwers get lots of media coverage, whether they represent a major current in anarchist circles or not (usually not).

This general procedure has gone on for at least 130 years specifically related to anarchists.

A quick google gave me http://www.anarchy.no/sa.html : The Anarchist Federation of Finland, which I bet you've never heard of in the media.

Yeah, I wouldn't trust whoever set those fires, sounds like idiots or people deliberately mis-using or trying to undermine the anarchist idea. That's been happening like I said since the 1880's. Probably some homeless types who fashion themselves "anarchists" because it sounds cool, without any political ideas.

I mean would you reject being Finnish if some uneducated guys killed immigrants and said loudly "In the Name of Finland!!"? You and your government would be quick to point out that those people do not represent the majority of Finnish people. So why should the political theory of anarchism be rejected wholesale because of the actions of a few idiots with no education or political agenda?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 05:06:03 am by Reelyanoob »
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1312 on: July 08, 2011, 05:26:05 am »

I am aware that not all anarchists are violent or destructive. However, the only groups that have (again, here in Finland) labeled themselves as anarchists have been angry guys trying to set fires and break stuff. I don't understand the political purpose of that. Generally though, I don't think anarchism is misguided, at least not misguided enough to label anarchism as a failed ideology and anarchists as idiots.
I mean would you reject being Finnish if some uneducated guys killed immigrants and said loudly "In the Name of Finland!!"? You and your government would be quick to point out that those people do not represent the majority of Finnish people. So why should the political theory of anarchism be rejected wholesale because of the actions of a few idiots with no education or political agenda?

Excuse me, but what exactly are you implying? I specifically said that I don't consider all anarchists to be the violent idiots who set fires to track equipment (see the bolded part in my quote).
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1313 on: July 08, 2011, 05:47:17 am »

Maybe I got a bit carried away, perhaps I didn't pay enough attention to that sentence, but you did seem to be implying that in Finland, at least, only the violent groups label themselves anarchists. I linked to the Finnish anarchist website belonging to a single group (as an example, that was from just a quick google search and by no means definitive), mainly pointing out that anarchists get very little media attention until some, usually homeless uni-student/dropout/drug-addict types vandalise something and then it's all "anarchists on the loose" headlines.
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1314 on: July 08, 2011, 05:55:59 am »

Well, it's true that "anarchism" as a word has a negative tinge: only stuff about anarchists (where they were labeled as anarchists) in the media here lately has been two incidents:

- A fire attack against a gas station (not much damage luckily), with an actual claimed political agenda (for independent Social Centres, but I don't understand why attacking a gas station helps there)
- The track equipment fire (with responsibility claimed by anarchists but no explanation for the deed)

In any case, I'm not the extremist type of person and I dislike this kind of vandalism, especially when the target has no connection with the ideology in question. I'm perfectly fine with the other types of anarchists.
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1315 on: July 08, 2011, 06:05:48 am »

Ummm...real Anarchists set up independent social centers already. The idea of advocating for them through some sort of force goes against several important anarchist political concepts :-

1. Do not use force to get what you want. Non-use of force/coercion is an important part of Anarchist philosophy.

2. Independence from government. If something is mandated or funded from the government, then it's not anarchist, because it is then reliant/funded by the current system. Getting government funding rather defeats the purpose.

Proper anarchists would just set up the social centers themselves through volunteer labour, raise funds through selling books etc. so that story doesn't even make any sense. Attacking the government over that only makes sense if independent grass-roots centers are somehow illegal now, and I don't think that's the case XD

Seems to go against the DIY attitiude of anarchism doesn't it? to need the government to give you something?

« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 06:13:46 am by Reelyanoob »
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scriver

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1316 on: July 08, 2011, 06:09:36 am »

So would any true Scotsman, really.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1317 on: July 08, 2011, 06:22:17 am »

To be clear, I'm not completely opposed to some occasions or forms of direct ("violent") action.  It can serve many purposes

1.  First and foremost, the anarchist ideal cannot co-exist with the current structure of society.  Any form of change will eventually come to blows.  I'm not exactly an insurrectionist.  I believe that culture and society are deeply tied.  People live in the best way that they know how.  If a handful of insurrectionists managed to tear down the established order, then that would create an opportunity for change.  Unfortunately, it would almost certainly lead to an immediate recreation of the exact same society as before, that being the society that the majority of people already know and understand.  There needs to be a widespread general understand and acceptance of an alternative within the dominant culture for change to be possible.  This is a long-term goal that direct action can realistically only play a very small and careful role in.  However, in the end there will be many, especially among the ruling class, who oppose change and will refuse to co-exist with a way of life different from theirs.  Current society is predatory, after all, and that is the root problem.  If anarchists could simply band together and make a place for ourselves seperate from the rest of the world, we would, but any large enough project would be destroyed from the outside, just as indigenous cultures around the world have been almost completely eradicated.  If a switch is ever made, there will be violence involved.

2.  One of the ills of modern society is the feeling of powerlessness and apathy among the average person.  Direct action is one powerful way to re-establish a sense of independence and volition.

3.  The resulting PR may make a bad impression on most, but those same people would probably never even know of the existence of anarchists in the world any other way.  Still others will have an opportunity to recognize that they are not alone in the world.  I had determined myself an anarchist by the age of 15, but didn't actually know there were signification numbers of people with similar ideals or even organizations until I was in my mid-20's.  I felt very very alone and hopeless, until I started reading up on events like the Battle in Seattle.  Through the perspective offered by anarchist organizations testing their strength, I realized that I am definitely not alone, and that there are actually enough of us out there to make a difference when we band together and play our cards right.  We need to let the world and our own potential allies know that we exist, and I don't think there's any better way to do it.

4.  Directly harming organizations that are seen as especially oppressive is a legitimate tactic.  This shouldn't even require explanation.  The only debate regarding this is how realistically effective this is vs the risks associated.  Yes, major banks are really evil and smashing up their offices costs them a lot of money and stuff, but does it really make enough of a dent to matter and can we afford to risk the jail time when there are so few of us?

To put this in perspective, I was really disappointed to hear about the recent sports riots in Vancouver.  I thought that was pointless and counter-productive.  I could understand the reasoning for action at the Olympic games (heavily associated with deeply nationalistic sentiments among other things), but still find it very questionable basis for causing trouble.  I don't exactly condemn it, but I sure wouldn't participate.  G20 summit?  Absolutely a time to make your presence known.  If I didn't have a family to care for, I would be there.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 06:25:37 am by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1318 on: July 08, 2011, 06:30:34 am »

side note: The Canadian NGO Foundation for Democratic Advancement did a report on worldwide electoral fairness (a few countries audited so far). In overall scores #1 was Venezuela, and #2 was Finland. Funny enough, USA scored higher than Canada, which surprises me.

Overall Electoral Fairness Audit Scores:

Quote
1. Venezuela 85% (A+)
2. Finland 40.75% (F)
3. Lebanon 37.5% (F)
4. Denmark 35% (F)
4. Russia 35% (F)
6. Argentina 32.5% (F)
7. United States 30% (F)
8. Canada 25.75% (F)
9. Mexico 22.5% (F)
10. Tunisia (under Ben Ali) 10% (F)
11. Cameroon 2.5% (F)
12. Yemen (under Saleh) 1.25% (F)
13. Bahrain 0% (F)
13. Egypt (under Mubarak) 0% (F)
13. Libya (under Gaddafi) 0% (F)
13. Syria (under Bashar al-Assad) 0% (F)
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1319 on: July 08, 2011, 06:37:50 am »

Ummm...real Anarchists set up independent social centers already. The idea of advocating for them through some sort of force goes against several important anarchist political concepts :-

I know that, I'm not totally clueless on this. The fire bottle strike was claimed by a group of self-described anarchists who support Sosiaalikeskus Satama ("Social Center Harbor", a less radical organization that organized a remarkably peaceful squatting event recently). Satama did neither condemn or praise the attackers, and I much prefer their "official" way of doing things - by creating, not by destruction. I don't get how fire bombing advances independent social centers.
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