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[Kay12]

Just a couple of questions: If a Muslim girl goes to a school, and wants to wear the bhurka, she should be able to wear one but only in the colours of the school. That sound right? And if that girl can wear a bhurka, shouldn't another girl be allowed to wear her cross?

I don't really get the point of school uniforms. Is there actually a reason the hypothetical girl here shouldn't be allowed to wear whatever she damn well pleases?

I don't live in America, but I've heard stories of people getting kicked out of schools for any religious symbols. Including rings with hardly noticeable symbols.

For the sake of the rules, not for the sake of good.

[Gamerlord]

I live in Aus, and my school says that they support no religion, but they won't let my little sis wear her cross and they let the muslim girls wear their bhurkas.

[Cheeetar]

I live in Aus, and my school says that they support no religion, but they won't let my little sis wear her cross and they let the muslim girls wear their bhurkas.

I'm pretty sure burqas aren't strictly a religious item of clothing, in the same way robes can be worn by anybody and not just monks.

[KaelGotDwarves]

I really doubt she was wearing a full burqa to school, but if she was, then I apologise for being wrong.

Common misconception that all head coverings are "burqas".

Either way, a burqa is not an outright religious symbol, as it is neither mandated nor mentioned any where in the Quran, but rather imposed upon Islamic women by certain Muslim cultures. I'm also sure some might not agree that it is 'imposed' either.

I imagine that if that Muslim girl had a big Islamic crescent hanging off her neck the school wouldn't allow it either.

[Truean]

Just a couple of questions: If a Muslim girl goes to a school, and wants to wear the bhurka, she should be able to wear one but only in the colours of the school. That sound right? And if that girl can wear a bhurka, shouldn't another girl be allowed to wear her cross?

I don't really get the point of school uniforms. Is there actually a reason the hypothetical girl here shouldn't be allowed to wear whatever she damn well pleases?

I don't live in America, but I've heard stories of people getting kicked out of schools for any religious symbols. Including rings with hardly noticeable symbols.

For the sake of the rules, not for the sake of good.

Never heard of this. Overwhelmingly, religious people, especially Christians, in the US fake persecution. They spout something about taking prayer out of schools, etc etc. The fact of the matter is these people in this country make most of the laws, try to ignore separation of church and state as much as possible and if we didn't impose some limits they would've turned us into their theocracy and demanded we thank them for it.... There is a reason we separate church and state; they seem to call upon the idea only when someone else's religion tries to make a law  .

Texas has rewritten the history books to eliminate various founders of the country and replace them with religious figures who were never Americans and in many cases not alive when the country was. Namely, they removed Thomas Jefferson and placed in St. Thomas Aquinas as a founding father, which is total and utter bullshit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

Why'd they do it? Because Jefferson said separation of church and state, which they loath. Rather they want their church as the state and everyone else's separated.... You might not understand why this is such a big deal, it's only Texas, except fucking Texas, through a little company called McGraw Hill publishes about 80% of the text books used in this country!

My favorite chocolate covered piece of bullshit is this lying moron:
“I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.”

That would be the establishment clause of the first amendment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment. I'm still waiting for the $1000 check you smug sack of shit.... Guess what else isn't in the U.S. Constitution, your right to life (Don't quote the Declaration of Independence, it is not the Constitution and has no legal force), to vote (Historically citizens voted for the legislatures and the legislatures voted for who was in the electoral college and they voted for president.... Even the amendments about voting don't say you have the right to vote only that you can't be stopped from doing so based on sex or race...). A whole crapload of rights are implied in the constitution but never mentioned, and without this implication, the system doesn't work. This man is not a historian or a lawyer or even sane.... Yet he is writing the overwhelming majority of history books in the US....

Think about that, these bastards are literally rewriting the history books and omitting people who don't fit with their crazy, completely inaccurate, batshit nuts political ideology of how this country was founded.  Seriously, screw you mindwashing bastards, because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas St. Thomas Aquinas died over 500 years before the country was even seriously thought up. Don't let the fact that it is physically impossible for this man to be a founder of a country made over 500 years after his death stop you from saying he did exactly that.... Brainwashing....

Speaking of Brainwashing, that's my problem with Burkas.

I really doubt she was wearing a full burqa to school, but if she was, then I apologise for being wrong.

Common misconception that all head coverings are "burqas".

Either way, a burqa is not an outright religious symbol, as it is neither mandated nor mentioned any where in the Quran, but rather imposed upon Islamic women by certain Muslim cultures. I'm also sure some might not agree that it is 'imposed' either.

I imagine that if that Muslim girl had a big Islamic crescent hanging off her neck the school wouldn't allow it either.

I see it as Stockholm Syndrome for a backwards view of women. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Women_in_Saudi_society, Saudi Arabia, women are property and treated as such. You have to be covered at all times and accompanied by a man when outside the home.

[Kay12]

I'm in favor of secularism and religious freedom, but freedom of religion includes the freedom to practise it. Yeah, persecution is faked and exaggerated, but in my opinion people should be allowed to extress their faith and other philosophical views through clothing.

[Soadreqm]

I don't really get the point of school uniforms. Is there actually a reason the hypothetical girl here shouldn't be allowed to wear whatever she damn well pleases?

I don't live in America, but I've heard stories of people getting kicked out of schools for any religious symbols. Including rings with hardly noticeable symbols.

For the sake of the rules, not for the sake of good.

Yeah, I've heard rumours of that. I'm not sure if I actually believe them. It sounds fairly silly. Here in Finland, trying to stop students from sporting religious symbols would probably clash with the whole freedom-of-religion thing. Honestly, I thought America had something like that going on as well. Isn't there something in the constitution about not banning religions?

Speaking of Brainwashing, that's my problem with Burkas.

I see it as Stockholm Syndrome for a backwards view of women. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Women_in_Saudi_society, Saudi Arabia, women are property and treated as such. You have to be covered at all times and accompanied by a man when outside the home.

Surely that is a problem with society, rather than a garment?

[Realmfighter]

Texas Governmental Bullshit

This is why I detest politics. The fact that people can do something like this in what I can only assume is a genuine fashion terrifies me.

Speaking of Brainwashing, that's my problem with Burkas.

I see it as Stockholm Syndrome for a backwards view of women. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Women_in_Saudi_society, Saudi Arabia, women are property and treated as such. You have to be covered at all times and accompanied by a man when outside the home.

Surely that is a problem with society, rather than a garment?

This is like saying you can't dislike guns, because they are only a object and it is people who kill each other with them.

[Truean]

Surely that is a problem with society, rather than a garment?

The problem with this society is that it views women as next to nothing and thus forces them to wear the garment and like it as a form or oppression....

If we forced, I dunno, adulterers, to wear a large red letter A, then the problem wouldn't be with the letter A but with us making them wear it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter

[KaelGotDwarves]

Possible enforcement of the "no religious symbols" is highly variable depending on which part of the US that you are in. I have heard stories of it being enforced and heard stories of it challenged in court. I wouldn't claim to know the specifics.

Indeed, the problem is not with the burqa but with a deeper underlying problem of not merely the fact that women are forced to act a certain way and treated as second class citizens but often times they are brought up and taught to enjoy being what we (so-called civil western society) would call second class citizens. So now what?

I say this because I have already gotten into interesting debates with women from certain countries that wore their hijaabs (and Niqabs) with pride.

[Aqizzar]

Surely that is a problem with society, rather than a garment?

The problem with this society is that it views women as next to nothing and thus forces them to wear the garment and like it as a form or oppression....

I know religious garments are the easiest thing in the world to feel self-righteous about, but I seriously think you are blowing the clothing out of proportion.  Yes, Saudi Arabia has terrible laws and mores - it's not the clothes' fault.  I've met quite a few Muslim women here in America who wear Hijabs and Khimars over designer clothing, with the kind of pride one expects of reveling in one's standards.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

In my opinion, in a free country, a person should be able to express him/herself with clothing freely (as long as said clothing covers the "naughty areas" of the culture in question).

like the hair or face of a woman in an islamic nation?

[Kay12]

As I said, burqa indeed does have a problem in the Western society, because both our culture and various actual actions (ID checks, for example) require one to show his/her face. It's not a big problem, though.

In my opinion, in a free country, a person should be able to express him/herself with clothing freely (as long as said clothing covers the "naughty areas" of the culture in question).

like the hair or face of a woman in an islamic nation?

In a way, yes. There's currently no universally acceptable dress code, so the best we've got is to stick to the dress code approved by the culture of the area we live in.

[Truean]

Surely that is a problem with society, rather than a garment?

The problem with this society is that it views women as next to nothing and thus forces them to wear the garment and like it as a form or oppression....

I know religious garments are the easiest thing in the world to feel self-righteous about, but I seriously think you are blowing the clothing out of proportion.  Yes, Saudi Arabia has terrible laws and mores - it's not the clothes' fault.  I've met quite a few Muslim women here in America who wear Hijabs and Khimars over designer clothing, with the kind of pride one expects of reveling in one's standards.

And I've told them,much to their disgust, that this "pride" is Stockholm Syndrome. I get it, I really do. They are proud of something in their heritage. That's fine except they don't really seem to get it. That thing in their heritage is the result of oppression and Saudi Arabia's modern laws reflect the ancient trends of that oppression. After all, Saudi Arabia is where Islam began with Mecca and Medina as Holy Cities (I'm not even going to touch Jerusalem).

Where do you think those laws came from? Where do you think the garment came from? It is a direct link?

[KaelGotDwarves]

In my opinion, in a free country, a person should be able to express him/herself with clothing freely (as long as said clothing covers the "naughty areas" of the culture in question).

like the hair or face of a woman in an islamic nation?

Again, common misconception. There are only about 3 countries that mandate hijabs or more - it is more commonly a choice or something that is done for the same reasons women in western countries would choose to... wear high heels to appear classy and appeal to men.