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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 876459 times)

Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1200 on: June 25, 2011, 07:22:35 pm »

I understand that you're hurt, but you are really driving me bonkers right now.

No one in this thread is out to attack you.  I already said that I would never use the word "mansplaining."  Furthermore, I have already explained how gender roles hurt both sides and, I believe, offered my condolences.  If I haven't then... well, I'm sorry that certain parts of being a man suck so much.  I really, really am.

Sorry if I sounded a bit bitter, I certainly was not trying to imply you or anyone on this thread was doing that (I wouldn't have posted it here if I thought that, I generally try and avoid conflict), just got a bit irate at the other blog posted here where it was clear any utterance by a male is automatically discredited on account of who said it, not what was said. Lots of men in relationships already feel like they're not allowed to disagree with their significant others. The British TV show "Keeping Up Appearances" may be very cliched (and not the greatest writing ever), but it endured for so many years precisely because there really are women who act like that in relationships. Not every female is sensitive, and not every male is an oblivious sports-fan.

And, like you alluded to being tired, it was one of the last things I posted before going to bed, so that might have been a factor.

Right now, I need to drink several cups of coffee.

You're right to disagree with terms like "mansplaining." (I'd forgotten or missed you saying that) after all, that opens up a can of worms where it's ok to use gender-based insults, and that's hardly taking the debate forward is it? =/

Although there term itself is brilliant in what it does - it could be either derived from "explaining" or "complaining", so covers every utterance the other gender makes. Even in the mansplaining blog, posters were discussing the (uncontested by the authors) existence of "female mansplainers", which are any females disagreeing with any females statement. But in a female vs female debate it would be unclear who is "right", and who is the "female-mansplainer"

There was actually a statement Germaine Greer made in the late 90's that public "man-bashing" had gone too far, so even the original second-wave feminists think this should be reigned in.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 07:48:45 pm by Reelyanoob »
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1201 on: June 25, 2011, 07:56:30 pm »

I read a psychology book a while back, one chapter was talking about perception of 'normal' vs 'aberrant' behavior.

There was a campaign in a national park with a petrified forest, where it said basically "everyone steals the petrified wood, don't be one of them". MORE WOOD got stolen after the campaign, a LOT more. The obvious reason being "well if EVERYONE does it, why not me?", and herd mentality. They then got experts help them work out what went wrong, and create a new campaign which sent the message "a FEW people steal petrified wood, nobody else likes them.", which showed a lone stealer with other disapproving people looking on. This new one worked.

Saying "everyone does it" sends the wrong message. The writer of the book thought that effect might be part of why the anti-drug campaign in the 80's "Just Say No" backfired so bad. It showed everyone else on drugs and one lone person saying "No".

The PSA campaign about all men being potential abusers might also send this wrong message to rapists, reinforcing their view that it's something all men could (at least potentially) do. I missed this one because I haven't owned a TV in several years, but there were similar TV campaigns for domestic abuse showing adult males before. Those Ads did not contrast the abusers with other men. They just showed a bunch of men with narrated thoughts like "she asked for it, it's ok" and then a black on white text saying stuff like "no, it's not ok". A better campaign would have had OTHER MEN saying it's not ok. Obviously this older campaign failed, so now they have moved on to say "all boys become abusers" which sends an even worse message.

This shows you cannot just show the bad behaviour. That makes it look normal. You have to contrast it with good behavior, and portray the good behavior as normality.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 08:05:09 pm by Reelyanoob »
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1202 on: June 25, 2011, 08:40:07 pm »

I do not see your point. Understanding means only to perceive the true nature of something, so, if we have compassion for the reasons you have suggested above, we can not say that we have understanding, and, thus, we can not say that our compassion is based upon understanding, as G-Flex was suggesting that it should be.

Arrrghhh semantics arguments drive me nuts. Let's agree to ban the word "understand" from this thread, please?

It has multiple synonyms. From now on please use these terms instead :-

Comprehend
Sympathize

"Understand" can mean both things, but they are not the same thing. I mean, I can comprehend how Hitler's Germany came about without agreeing or sympathizing with it. "Understand" makes it sound like you have to agree with something to dissect it, which is causing confusion here. And how can we prevent that which we do not comprehend?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 08:58:07 pm by Reelyanoob »
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Fenrir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1203 on: June 25, 2011, 09:02:07 pm »

If you do not like semantics arguments, and you wish to ban words that have varying definitions, English is not your language.
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1204 on: June 25, 2011, 09:16:38 pm »

I was reading the gist of your reply as "The individual circumstances matter most", which I wanted to counterbalance because it is very easy to stare yourself blind on individual characteristics and lose sight of what really matters.
The example I gave was one where the judge is essentially hiding behind a legal definition so he doesn't have to convict people instead of, you know, actually convict people for what they have done. It is one of the very problems I'm trying to argue; people are looking for ways out to not convict people or even admit that they're dealing with people that don't belong in our society, because it is hard to tell someone to his face that he is not just wrong, but Wrong. Or maybe I am seeing too much behind the case.

Virex you're nuts, you really think judges are out to avoid convicting murderous bikers? that's a crazy idea. There's due process and centuries of rules to try and avoid total state power and the government being able to lock you up without rights. That's part of living in a democracy. The judge would have put them all away for life if possible, but the legal rules mean you have to have something called a "trial" with "evidence". Sometimes the rules protect innocent individuals from wrongful charges, and sometimes the guilty get off due to techincalities. Total power to lock up people without proper trials would guarantee convictions of the guilty, but also of the innocent.

Conviction without trial, or mandated government convictions is a right-wing wish-list. It's part of fascism. Are you sure this viewpoint isn't being pushed by the dutch right-wing party? It sounds like something they'd like to push through parliament.

The official explanation given by her lawyer is that she was maltreated and threatened by her man (which left the country prior to the incidents), but that's exactly one of those detail-problems I'm arguing about, because nobody should walk away with 240 hours of community service after doing that to her children...

Well let's see what prison would have done:-

1. Cost a lot of YOUR tax money
2. Not stopped her doing it again (she's lost custody of the kids, so she's not doing it again)
3. Driven her MORE INSANE (obviously some level of mental disorder, making her more crazy will become a state burden down the track.)
4. Given you and some other dutch people 5 minutes worth of smug superiority feelings.
5. Not stopped anyone else doing that same thing. People sane enough to worry, aren't doing that to their kids to start with.
 
So, there's no benefit to society or the child in giving her a prison sentence other than that "I told you so" feeling you'll get for 5 minutes on reading about it in the newspaper, and then promptly forget about. That's not worth the financial cost.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:48:09 pm by Reelyanoob »
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1205 on: June 25, 2011, 09:49:37 pm »

Truean: Yeah, sorry, I didn't think precedent was as strictly binding in the US as it apparently is. It's at least more complicated than I thought, anyway. What distinguishes between precedent that's binding and precedent that isn't, though? After all, I know I've seen examples of court cases that rule different ways on basically the same issue.

Geography, Authority, Similar Facts in the Case you are Citing:
To summarize, jurisdiction and what I'd characterize as "chain of authority" to make it easier.

Keep in mind that if you can "distinguish" one case from another on the facts, that means you can argue the case someone is trying to say is binding is inapplicable due to a factual difference.

Example of Distinguishing a Cited Case on Different Facts:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A.) Generally, unless you can distinguish it somehow, like above, State Trial Court is bound by:

1.) Any and all precedent from the U.S. Supreme Court.
2.) Any and all precedent from the State Supreme Court of its own state.
3.) Any and all precedent from the appellate court it is immediately under (there are different geographical appellate courts for different areas of the state and they are numbered. All trial courts belong under the rule of a regional state appellate court http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/JudSystem/districtCourts/default.asp, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_District_Courts_of_Appeals )

B.) Generally, unless you can distinguish it somehow, like above, Federal District Court (federal trial court) is bound by:
1.) Any and all precedent from the U.S. Supreme Court.
2.) Any and all precedent from the federal circuit (appellate) court it is immediately under. (Much like state courts, the U.S. is divided into regions for purposes of the federal courts. The same rule applies via geographic location http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_district_court)

This means that if you look at the maps and you are in the first (1st) circuit or appeals district, the stuff from the second (2) circuit or appeals district (or any other) is only persuasive and not binding. Persuasive means the court may choose to use it if you can convince the judge it makes sense to and that the judge has authority to do so (that it does not conflict with binding precedent).

Civil Procedure is an entire yearlong course in law school and it is very complex. There are other, separate, issues as to where a case is heard. Here are some of them.
Venue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venue_%28law%29
Subject Matter Jurisdiction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_Matter_Jurisdiction

Quote
So uh... how exactly does on "operate" a car, then?

Incidentally, there's something of a movement in Britain to properly define what "libel" is, incidentally, since currently the law is pretty much being made up by one particular judge.

O dear god, please don't. I'm not remotely joking that it was 7 single spaced pages to explain it to the prosecutor. I never want to look at it again. It was absolutely asinine . I will say that:

"Operate" included, but somehow was not limited to:
Driving "Duh"
Starting by means of the ignition or improvisation ("Hot Wiring")
Use of the radio or other features
Turning on the headlights
Fueling and Refueling (but not performing maintenance)

*Shiver*

I only cared because OVI, (Operating Vehicle Intoxicated or formerly DUI) was specifically banned from the diversion program i was trying to get the kid into. The kid was charged with CVI (Controlling Vehicle Intoxicated), which is a step or two down from an OVI. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.194. It includes having possession of the keys on your person (like in your pocket or something) and being in the car's driver seat, while you are drunk. You specifically aren't driving the car in this case just sitting in it drunk. It's a first degree misdemeanor which can be punished by up to 6 months in prison.

The prosecutor said "Control," "Operate" what's the difference? He isn't eligible and has to go to trial like everyone else..... Basically, here's a real reason why my firm sometimes has to charge more for cases taking longer: The Prosecutor is having a bad day and I have to deal with it somehow when he takes it out on you and I.

Thankfully, the kid was doing none of the things for "operating" and so he got the easy way out. He was essentially sitting in a dark parked car with his girlfriend in the driver's seat with the keys in his pocket while drunk off his ass. I'll leave the rest to you....

He was also charged with underage intoxication, which no one had the slightest argument he didn't do. The prosecutor didn't give a shit and thought it was an open and shut case, and he was right. Question, are you under 21? Yes. Question, Are you Drunk? Yes. Guilty.... That and the CVI and his asshole parents won't pay when he somehow got out of it...? Awwwww Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.......... Hence the suing for fees! Grumble mumble grumble grumble rumble mumble.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 10:34:29 pm by Truean »
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1206 on: June 25, 2011, 09:58:45 pm »

If you do not like semantics arguments, and you wish to ban words that have varying definitions, English is not your language.

I'm not saying I don't like semantics or anything like that, just pointing out a level of confusion caused here by people using the word "understand" differently and not comprehending each others point, then it devolves into who's meaning of the word "understand" is correct. Both are correct, and neither is correct is the truth. I don't see why you're making this an Ad Hominem attack on me?

It can get confusing whether this is a deliberate or accidental mis-understanding. In extreme cases, trolls can deliberate misconstrue words to derail conversations. If I say "please avoid ambiguous phrasing" i am NOT "against English"

I'm arguing for clarity of the underlying meaning of peoples ideas, rather than a war over who "owns" the word, and avoiding arguments along the lines of "I didn't mean X" => "YES YOU DID!!11!!!11"

@fenrir (below): It did happen about 3 pages ago. Someone talked about understanding the causes of crime and was attacked for promoting sympathizing with criminals, which is not the same thing. Anyway, I made a single post to comment on the issue, and you've made 2 posts in response so far, so much for you seeing no reason to discuss it.

Since you've missed my point completely I'll link the dictionary definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/understand
There are 13 different definitions of "understand" listed, tolerance/acceptance is number 11, comprehension is number 1 on the list.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 10:18:13 pm by Reelyanoob »
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Fenrir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1207 on: June 25, 2011, 10:04:30 pm »

Very well, but I see no such conflict occurring there. It is hardly worth discussing further either way.
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Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1208 on: June 25, 2011, 10:31:41 pm »

I just noticed that I picked your quote pretty much at random from the thread, this was in no way intended to say that you, Fenrir, were the culprit or sole cause of the problem, I just realized why you may have thought I was singling you out, sorry.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1209 on: June 26, 2011, 12:11:13 pm »

@Truean: ah, cool.  That sounds like some pretty solid legal work, and I guess it ultimately does kindof make sense that you're not operating a car if you're just sitting in it.  The point of confusion seems to be more on the definition of "control"... how are you controlling a car if you aren't driving it?  I guess you're specifically making it not move?  Eh.
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1210 on: June 26, 2011, 02:31:34 pm »

Quote
Virex you're nuts
I would prefer the term "in disagreement with me due to an apparent mental disorder that causes deviant and in my eyes inadmissible moral judgments", but I guess nuts will do as well.
Quote
you really think judges are out to avoid convicting murderous bikers? that's a crazy idea. There's due process and centuries of rules to try and avoid total state power and the government being able to lock you up without rights. That's part of living in a democracy. The judge would have put them all away for life if possible, but the legal rules mean you have to have something called a "trial" with "evidence". Sometimes the rules protect innocent individuals from wrongful charges, and sometimes the guilty get off due to technicalities. Total power to lock up people without proper trials would guarantee convictions of the guilty, but also of the innocent.

It was a collective charge, not an individual one, since all club members collaborated. It's also a public secret that this was essentially a big "eff you!" to the cabinet because the judges apparently felt the government was taking their seat by setting minimum punishments for some crimes and that the Hells Angels are being protected by the justice system (How else can they keep on murdering gang members, trafficking drugs and carry heavy arms and munition?)


Unfortunately, our legal system is very closed, to the point where I would almost use the word "inbred" to describe the situation, so it's very unlikely and almost impossible for a judge to be held accountable for making glaring errors. At most the high court can declare the ruling void, but guess who has the best connections with the high court?

 
Conviction without trial, or mandated government convictions is a right-wing wish-list. It's part of fascism. Are you sure this viewpoint isn't being pushed by the dutch right-wing party? It sounds like something they'd like to push through parliament.
The thing the right-wing party here is pushing very hard is "rules are rules". If a extreme-right, populist party has to point out that there are rules and they have to be upheld by the justice system, it might be a clear indication that something, somewhere is wrong.

Quote
Quote
The official explanation given by her lawyer is that she was maltreated and threatened by her man (which left the country prior to the incidents), but that's exactly one of those detail-problems I'm arguing about, because nobody should walk away with 240 hours of community service after doing that to her children...

Well let's see what prison would have done:-

1. Cost a lot of YOUR tax money
2. Not stopped her doing it again (she's lost custody of the kids, so she's not doing it again)
3. Driven her MORE INSANE (obviously some level of mental disorder, making her more crazy will become a state burden down the track.)
4. Given you and some other dutch people 5 minutes worth of smug superiority feelings.
5. Not stopped anyone else doing that same thing. People sane enough to worry, aren't doing that to their kids to start with.
 
So, there's no benefit to society or the child in giving her a prison sentence other than that "I told you so" feeling you'll get for 5 minutes on reading about it in the newspaper, and then promptly forget about. That's not worth the financial cost.
Jail time is always expensive and never helps anyone so your argument would just as well apply to Dominique Strauss-Kahn, yet I do not see you arguing he should be let off with community service.
But your ivory-tower analysis is kind of one of the problems with our justice system (apart from the fact that the children are currently probably being raped by their child care coach, but that's another matter entirely). In ignoring said feeling of "smug superiority", people often forget that the justice system has to keep touch with the reality of the people it is meant to protect. If you base your punishment solely on the chance of repetition and the state of the convicted, then you should not be surprised if people lose their faith in the justice system and it's ability to, well, do it's job. Because the victims exist as well and letting someone walk who very nearly killed them is just showing a huge amount of neglect to them. If it'd cost me extra tax, then let it be so, we're already accepting Belgian prisoners because we've got overcapacity here so it can't be that much.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 02:34:35 pm by Virex »
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1211 on: June 26, 2011, 02:45:08 pm »

@Truean: ah, cool.  That sounds like some pretty solid legal work, and I guess it ultimately does kindof make sense that you're not operating a car if you're just sitting in it.  The point of confusion seems to be more on the definition of "control"... how are you controlling a car if you aren't driving it?  I guess you're specifically making it not move?  Eh.

:) The simple answer is, "cause the statute actually straightforwardly says so this time," and who knows what the legislature was thinking, except of course, "how do I get reelected?" They always think that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I had to argue the point for why the statute's definition makes sense, there are basically two routes:
1.) "Meaning of Words" which eh... 2.) Public Policy and legal reasoning (usually a last resort).

"Meaning of Words" (which is somewhat dicey)
Here, control means you can determine what happens to the car itself, not just the direction in which the car is traveling. A person in control, as defined by the statute, possesses the keys, and thus is in control over whether or not he or she starts the car (a form of operation)

Public Policy: (again, usually what you fall back on if the law and the facts aren't your friends)
If you are drunk, we don't want you anywhere near a car, ever, at all. We really don't want you sitting in the driver's seat with the keys. Screw it. Drunk driving, OVI, is a serious problem that kills or injures many people and damages a lot of property and this is basically one step down from that. Keep in mind, CVI can be when the police don't have enough evidence to charge someone with full on OVI before or after they may have done the criminal act.

Think about it, just as an officer could find someone in their car about to commit drunk driving, they could also find that person after they had done so and be unable to prove they moved the car while drunk. It is not enough to say that, "well it's a car, how the crap else did it get here if he didn't drive it." Yes, but driving isn't a crime, doing so while drunk is and the "while drunk" is what you've gotta prove. Can't prove that? Did the guy have the keys on him while sitting behind the wheel? Yups? Congrats, CVI. I read a lot of precedent cases on this, a good number of them were where an officer found the guy parked on some lawn he shouldn't have been, drunk. People see some guy sitting in a car parked kind of on the lawn for a few hours, cause he's sleeping it off and someone calls the police, because for all we know he had a stroke or something....

Other times, some guy walks stumbles the hell out of some bar and tries to sleep it off in his car, behind the wheel with his keys in pocket. For some reason, they seem to like to blast the radio at about this time which attracts attention to them. Some of them pass out while the car is still thankfully in park. Sometimes, someone will walk by the car blasting the radio and see some guy hunched over the steering wheel unconscious, which again, is 'round about the time someone calls the police, cause they'll shout at the guy and he won't wake up.... Could be dead or something for all I know.

Can't make OVI (DUI) on the guy, so this is the next best thing....

Moral of the Story: The law doesn't have to make sense and it often doesn't. It just has to be the law. It certainly doesn't have to make sense to you in that you agree with it or even understand it (ignorance of the law is no excuse). As you can imagine, this leads to a lot of "interesting" conversations with all sorts on all kinds of issues. People seem to want to simplify things and that just can't be done

My boss was trying and failing to explain what a life estate (the right to occupy and possess the property until you die) is to the remainderman (the guy who gets the property after you, the person holding the life estate, die). The dude just couldn't wrap his mind around it and kept asking "does she own the property or not," like it was an absolute and he was just being jerked around by some lawyer. It's really simple: she owns and lives in the place 'til she croaks, then you get it outright.... She has a duty to maintain, but not replace stuff on the property. Two sentences.... Flew right over his head, repeatedly because he just didn't want to hear it....
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 02:55:17 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Reelyanoob

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1212 on: June 26, 2011, 08:39:37 pm »

Jail time is always expensive and never helps anyone so your argument would just as well apply to Dominique Strauss-Kahn, yet I do not see you arguing he should be let off with community service.

Jailing a rapist may well deter other rapists in the future, also it prevents him raping again. Why do something which "never helps anyone", are you arguing we should do things which have no benefit at all? That would rather defeat the argument before you start.

With the Belgian thing, I'm certain the Belgians are actually paying you to house the prisoners because it's slightly cheaper to send them to Holland which has empty cells than building entire new jails in Belgium. The high cost of incarcerating prisoners is the very reason there's Belgian prisoners in your country, so that's hardly proof that the costs "can't be that much".

And didn't there right-wing party leader himself just get let off on some criminal charges in Holland? I don't see the right-wing calling for "sticking to the rules" on that one, only when the person is non-white. That's the normal Modus Operandi for right-wingers, it's not abnormal at all like you suggest.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1213 on: June 26, 2011, 08:40:14 pm »

I'm going to be gone for a while.  As such, because I will be unable to moderate this thread during that time, it will be locked.

It should come back at the end of those three weeks.  To everyone who has contributed to this thread, thank you very much; to everyone who has found encouragement here, I'm sorry for doing this =/  But, in truth, I really need a break from the internet, and I need to get some personal issues taken care of offline that are going to be hard to settle.

See you soon, everyone, and keep safe.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1214 on: July 02, 2011, 04:31:50 pm »

Hello, everyone.  This vacation has been pretty good for me so far :3

However, let's talk about the Bechdel Test.

It turns out that screenwriters are taught not to pass it.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".
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