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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870712 times)

olemars

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1185 on: June 25, 2011, 02:42:33 pm »

They're talking about dissolving or at least reforming the jury system here in Norway too, because it's starting to become obvious that "judged by your peers" isn't all that fair.
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1186 on: June 25, 2011, 02:43:42 pm »

True, But it may also lead to some very incompetant jurors. Especially if the juror's decision has to be unanimous.

Also, just so I can use a web translator on that link, what language is it in?
Dutch
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1187 on: June 25, 2011, 02:44:20 pm »

I'd also like to point out, Virex, that your arguments hinge a lot on personal judgement of the value of punishment as deterrent and how much of a priority that takes over rehabilitation.
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1188 on: June 25, 2011, 02:46:19 pm »

I'd also like to point out, Virex, that your arguments hinge a lot on personal judgement of the value of punishment as deterrent and how much of a priority that takes over rehabilitation.

Not even this, but also how much of a priority it takes over other forms of deterrent, such as providing good mental health care to those who have problems that might cause them to commit crimes, or recognizing when otherwise-okay people might do so (if you demonize rapists, you will not recognize a potential rapist until he rapes, because only unpersons rape and someone who hasn't raped yet is not yet an unperson).
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1189 on: June 25, 2011, 02:48:09 pm »

I'd also like to point out, Virex, that your arguments hinge a lot on personal judgement of the value of punishment as deterrent and how much of a priority that takes over rehabilitation.
That is very true, but one important point people often overlook is the value of justice for the victims. For rehabilitation a short sentence or community service is better then a long one and for deterrent value the length of the sentence doesn't really matter all that much (the perceived chance of being caught is more important). Yet sentencing a killer to community service (assuming he's not dangerous and there's no chance he'll repeat it) would be a grave insult to the family of the victim.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1190 on: June 25, 2011, 02:54:32 pm »

Yeah... I'm kind of aware of this, though I've always had a really hard time understanding it... I understand the desire for revenge as a knee-jerk emotional reaction, but I don't understand why a supposedly impartial social structure that supposedly exists for the betterment of society as a whole caters so much to it.
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1191 on: June 25, 2011, 03:02:11 pm »

It's because society is more then a cold implementation of the most effective practices. It's about the feeling of social cohesion and safety people have and as a result the justice system caters to the basic human tendency to equate punishment with justice, because if it wouldn't, people would lose trust in the justice system, with predictable results.
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G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1192 on: June 25, 2011, 03:18:18 pm »

That's ridiculous. Nobody is saying that people shouldn't be punished for committing crimes. What's in question is how/how much you punish them, what the goal of punishment is (beyond "social justice"), and how to prevent those crimes to begin with.

Also: How a society views punishment and justice is not set in stone. Your "basic human tendency" is more variable than you think. Not everyone in every culture requires the same punishments for the same crime in order to feel that justice has been served.
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1193 on: June 25, 2011, 03:45:26 pm »

Also: How a society views punishment and justice is not set in stone. Your "basic human tendency" is more variable than you think. Not everyone in every culture requires the same punishments for the same crime in order to feel that justice has been served.
That is very true, opinions on this can change strongly trough time and the justice system should adapt to them, but one cannot deny that those opinions exist and are a very real requirement for the justice system instead of a "knee-jerk emotional reaction."
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1194 on: June 25, 2011, 03:49:10 pm »

Also their decisions are not binding - the court doesn't have to follow similar previous verdicts, it only has to follow the letter of the laws. Which are usually pretty precise.

Legal precedent usually isn't "binding", really; it just carries weight in countries where it matters.

???

Um, no to pretty much most if not all of this. At least not in the U.S....

Failure to follow applicable, binding precedent, is often grounds for appeal. Why do you think higher courts bother making precedent if not?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Laws are most definitely not pretty precise most of the time, at least not American Law.

Part of this is unavoidable. You just can't make a standard that thinks of all circumstances beforehand. Life surprises you. Moreover what the hell is  a "reasonable" use of force? The law can't dictate that, because it is very fact specific. What is "reasonable" use of care?"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've spent days and hours looking through cases to argue through stuff for court cases at work. It's what I do. You'll have one side saying the law should be interpreted one way and another side saying it should go another.... "Simple" and "Precise" doesn't entire into it. This is a fallacy and just doesn't pan out in court.

Definitions, legal definitions, can make or break a case and people totally don't get this. I once had to duke it out with a prosecutor over the meaning of "Operate" as in "operate" a motor vehicle. If the firm's client legally "operated" the motor vehicle, then the kid was going to a trial he couldn't win. If he didn't legally "operate" said motor vehicle, there was a diversion program I could get him into where his record was retroactively wiped clean, he would never have a trial, record etc. He would have to go to 30 AA classes. This is the best conceivable result possible if you can get it. Took me 3 hours to look through 173 cases to see the damn legal definition which, because God hates me at work, is anything but the simple "operating a car means driving it." It worked and kid got off with AA meetings he needed.

Naturally, his parents, who could totally afford it, didn't want to pay for my 3 hours of research on the legal definition. To review, case won with the best result possible, kid off Scott free with no trial or punishment for a crime he had 0 defense to (he did it).

Why wouldn't they pay willingly, "Well, 3 hours sounds like a lot for looking up a definition!"
You mean you wouldn't wanna pay me if I lost and you won't pay me after winning so you never wanted to pay me at all. O guess who's getting sued for fees and their wages garnished.....
*many, many headdesks*
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1195 on: June 25, 2011, 03:53:04 pm »

I would like to thank you for the extended explanation, but that quote applied to the justice system in most European countries (French continental law, to use your words)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 04:32:17 pm by Virex »
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1196 on: June 25, 2011, 04:23:16 pm »

Kudos. I apologize for not taking our European posters into account as much as I should.

Just wanted to clarify, because there is a HUGE movement in the US to "make things simple," "not pay for anything," and "just make it work." They're actually firing Prosecutors in the City of Cleveland (Cuyahoga County) as some kind of budgeting thing the governor is crazy for.... Because somehow there's less crime in a recession?

Sorry if it strikes a nerve.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1197 on: June 25, 2011, 04:47:53 pm »

Truean: Yeah, sorry, I didn't think precedent was as strictly binding in the US as it apparently is. It's at least more complicated than I thought, anyway. What distinguishes between precedent that's binding and precedent that isn't, though? After all, I know I've seen examples of court cases that rule different ways on basically the same issue.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1198 on: June 25, 2011, 05:13:38 pm »

So uh... how exactly does on "operate" a car, then?

Incidentally, there's something of a movement in Britain to properly define what "libel" is, incidentally, since currently the law is pretty much being made up by one particular judge.
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aenri

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1199 on: June 25, 2011, 05:43:49 pm »

When we are on topic of law I will chime in with clarification of our continental system, as I am lawyer from Slovakia (little EU country).

We don't have precedents or juries. Cases are decided by one judge, or by senate (3 or 5 judges). We also have Constitutional Court, but I won't go there. The specialty is that sometimes (mainly in criminal law), the senate is composed of 1 judge and 2 lay judges (they are not lawyers), which decide by majority vote on guilt and sentence. But this institute will be soon deprecated, because it served no real purpose in reality.

About law used - the judges here apply the text of laws to case, but they must obey the rule of law. There are no binding precedents, although the Supreme Court makes something of a "case law" when they return any judgments from lower courts, if they don't conform to Supreme Court previous rulings, and then the legal opinion of higher court is binding for lower court.

There are many legal definitions here so we have little leeway in what constitutes what, but not everything is set in law, so we can argue about that in court.

There are also other problems here with justice system and judges, most of them being remnants from socialist era, so for example - corruption is widespread.
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