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[Truean]

Damnit, Aqizzar, you really have a politician in you. So much diplomatic bollocking just to say the same thing that DJ did in two sentences.

Like Salmon said, everything in this thread is an emotionally charged issue.  I wanted to make myself absolutely clear.

Truean, I really wish I had a greater response for you, but there really is nothing I can say except that you deserve better.

Thank you.

Aqizzar does raise an interesting and valid point. There is a palpable friction when it comes to discussing racism and sexism, especially in the U.S., where not only have these issues been massive problems, but everything our country is says they should never have been problems.... Some of this friction is entirely justifiable; some of it isn't; some of it claims unintended victims. This is regrettable and the last portion is entirely so. For if we become what we hate for hating us, then we are no better than it, nay we are worse for knowing better and still letting it win in doing so.... 

To the extent I didn't say the right things and made an innocent man feel uneasy here, I must apologize for doing so. All I can say is that it is immensely hard to just accept all this pain inside. It leaves you wanting to lash out and strike the source of that pain, except you can't find the source of your misery, because it hides among other, innocent, men camouflaging itself among and as one of them. You KNOW some of the men you meet will be sexist, but you can never KNOW which of them it will be. Worse yet it is seemingly impossible to explain to these other men that the source of your misery stalks you while blending in among them, and that they have unknowingly, unintentionally and with the purest of motives, aided your tormentor.... The same applies to most prejudices and peoples.

To the extent I make a prejudiced person feel uneasy.... You're running out of places to hide from me you son of a bitch.... I'll stop the distorting of views and blurring of facts. I'll break the ground that you walk on. Yet I won't resort to the scorched earth of "when your prey goes to ground, leave no ground to go to," because others are on that ground and collateral damage is unacceptable at all costs. I'll just set my bait in the trap, and bide my time until there's a lovely piece of you over the blade to sever and claim.

No, Aqizzar, like so many others, is a decent enough man in an indecent world that he had no part in making indecent. I have fought him like hell and suspect I will continue to fight him. My trap isn't set for him. He may well be one of those many innocent men who have unknowingly, unintentionally and with the purest of motives, aided our tormentors. He bears no blame for this and I assign him none. If he does not see this the fault is not his but ours and our tormentors. Our tormentors for tormenting us, and ours for failing to find the words to show him. For how can he be blamed for not seeing that which we fail show him and only we have reason to have seen?

It is a frustrating as hell situation though, for all parties I'm sure....

You're a lot braver than I am. I'd be petrified to send pictures of myself to people I don't know. Granted, I'm somewhat paranoid (justifiably) about that stuff, but still.

Did you notice people were more likely to think you were a boy when you told them you were a math major?

Well, er... this one notorious photo is everywhere if you want to see it, haha.

I actually strongly suspect that folks are predisposed to think I'm a dude by my own design.  I initially took the username "Vector" for its similarity to "Victor."  And I started off here hanging out in the Mafia subforums, where I got a reputation for being tenacious and full of righteous asskicking.

I suspect part of the problem is that I greet things like

Dude, no way you're a girl!

with

Fuck off, you rectal trilby.

I don't talk like girls are expected to talk.  I grew up surrounded by guys, and as a result my language usage is slightly nonstandard, to say the least.

But in any case, it was never about the math major part--that doesn't tend to come up before we've had the argument.  Something about the combination of personality, avatar, and username, I suppose.

I like that picture. It's got sort of a fun, adventurous streak to it, also an eagle.... Society's expectations for women are often out of sorts with what we want. To a certain degree this is probably true for men and what they want too.

As a child I was never very "rough and tumble" I stayed back and watched what everyone else did (and it probably had nothing to do with my four older brothers routinely throwing me bodily into dangerous situations....). I was more interested in understanding something before I tried to do it and then doing it head first and figuring it out on the fly.

As a teen, I got made fun of all to hell and after the repeated, semi random beatings I ended up getting 3, nearly 4 blackbelts. I guess when you have no friends you can practice that shit 3 hours a day every day. Back then I totally used it to tell myself I didn't like men.... That didn't work well. Now I see it as a bit of a redefinition of my conception of women. We can be "tough" as well and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that or exclusive to males.

And while I wanted to be a girl even as a child [despite years of trying wayyy to hard to lie to myself about it], I find it interesting that my childhood friend Kayla and I enjoyed climbing trees together among other things. Granted, there are some "traditional" female roles I honestly fit quite nicely into, and others I don't. Same can be said of most girls. I think i will always be a bit of a snarky, yet respectful goofball. I will always have a deep affection for my friend's children (while working through that god awful mental block about gays doing terrible things from mom and dad), and will allow my more nurturing side to come out then. I I hope to also have my "active" side be there.

At some point, I just want to be like every other girl; like many women, I don't want a stereotype to define what that means.

As stated before, I'm a gritty pragmatist. I don't expect guys to stop calling each other "pussies" or any of the other feminine insult names. It'd be nice though.

I do honestly hope the male macho culture tones it down a tad and allows boys to cry. I will always remember being 12 and breaking my right femur (the long, top part of your leg) bone and having to have an operation to put a metal rod in it (removed one year later). This left a 3 to 3 1/2 scar on my right hip where the surgeon went in. Naturally this wouldn't be overlooked in gym class and I explained to them what happened.

Their first response was a mocking, "Did you cry!?" No, I actually balled my eyes out and begged God or whoever the hell would listen to make the pain stop. The only person who eventually answered was the ER nurse with morphine. I snapped the biggest bone in my body in half with sharp pointy parts ripping around my leg muscles from the inside and I got seriously made fun of for crying about it? There's bullshit and then there's whatever the hell you call that mess, which needs to stop....

I don't know how society should deal with this stuff. "Equality" means a lot of different things and in some cases is inapplicable, because women are different from men. Even and especially with those differences, we're just as good as they are....

[Toady One]

I think my last "but seriously" statement was grossly misunderstood. Me demanding the right to make fun of other people? Oh, the hilarity.
I don't need to demand, I just do that .
In an autistic "I don't see how it contributes to the problem, it's sexists and racists that contribute to the problem"-way.

If me making a gay joke makes it easier for someone else to beat up a gay guy in the street the next night, I will NOT take responsibility for that.
If me making a sexist joke makes a girl feel uncomfortable, that is her problem, again. I will treat her as an equal (worth) in every way I would treat any man, but will not sacrifice Humor (yes, MY humor, I don't really care if you find it funny) for anyone's feelings, that is really doing it the wrong way around.
If making a racist joke actually makes me a racist, so be it. As far as I know, I'm pretty colorblind when it comes to race, and never treated anyone differently for it, and you thinking otherwise is again, your problem.

I think I just fail to see how not making sexist/racist/any other joke, or not insulting anyone, stops actual discrimination or physical assault, and refuse to change my behaviour because other people disagree on that point.

(In my defense, I never make jokes about rape, nor find them funny)
(In other news, every line of this post started with an I, except for the next one. I think I'm a bit in an egoistic mood today.)
(Truean: Good for you, and courageous to come out. I hope these fora treat you differently. What I did miss was "jokes about trans" in your "It pisses me off"-chapter. Could you stand jokes about transsexuals, made by a non-transsexual? And even then, how would you not know that I secretly am a closet-trans as well and what you interpreted as a demeaning joke was actually self deprecating?)

[/rantpost]

Somebody asked me to come look at this thread, and given this post and Siquo's other post before it, I'd like to draw attention to the forum guidelines here.  Bigoted remarks will not be tolerated.

[Vector]

Somebody asked me to come look at this thread, and given this post and Siquo's other post before it, I'd like to draw attention to the forum guidelines here.  Bigoted remarks will not be tolerated.

Sorry you had to come in and look, sir, but thanks for helping out.

[Vector]

(Apologies for the double post)

My childhood... when I was really little, I wanted to be a boy.  I don't think it was a trans thing.  It wasn't that I was male and I knew this.  There was a wall between myself and the boys.  But at the same time, there was a wall between myself and the girls.  I've never been able to understand either "side" as my own.  I guess I've always felt like a bit of a free agent, playing for no one's team.

I, you know, did those things people do.  Had a shirt that buttoned on the "wrong" side.  The boy side.  I loved the hell out of that shirt and wore it whenever I could.  There were other boy things I wanted, too, because it all seemed so much cooler.  It was comfortable.  A sort of laissez-faire individualism.  Maybe it was power I liked so much.

There were two things I wanted to be most when I grew up: either a knight or a scientist.

In any case, my elementary school lunch tables were divided by gender, not by teachers, but by childish custom.  After a brief stint of sitting with the girls, confused by the "cooties" the boys were supposed to carry, I ended up sitting with the boys.  I didn't talk with anyone, and though folks occasionally came to bother me, I tended to get a free pass for a. superior ignoring skills and b. intelligence (I ended up being the classroom's representative to the "student government" quite a few times).  Spent my lunch periods designing and building weaponry or other machinery, drawing maps of the playground, making pottery, playing handball, "training to be a knight," trying to pick the classroom's locks, playing my school's strange variant of freeze tag, or just making observations.  I got a lot of "cease and desist" orders for these activities, and a lot of guff from the boys I kept trying to fit in with.  My male cousin went to the same elementary school and we'd wrestle a lot.

Somehow, I didn't feel any peer pressure to do "girl" things, because I wasn't in that category to myself.  I seldom interacted with other children at all.  When I did, it was usually in order to produce something together.

In any case, I never understood at all why no one liked me.  I suppose my obliviousness was helpful.  Folks would hassle me.  I didn't act scared, because I didn't understand that there was anything to be scared of.  I might have been a 4'11" bag of bones with glasses, but I had uncontestable moxie and the confidence that comes of being disdainfully outside of the system.

Of course, when we had roleplay activities I tended to cast myself in a male role.

Middle school was when I started getting in trouble, as one might suspect.  All kinds of things... if it wasn't that I wore "boy pants," it was that I didn't smile enough, didn't drink, didn't wear makeup, intruded too much in other people's affairs, had more arm hair than the boys, got beaten up by the girls, was a "French piece of shit."  It shouldn't have been a big deal, all of that, but those were the interactions that intruded on my silent, separate little world--and I pretty much never talked.  I sat with the retarded kids and hung out with the misfits--the girl who had been sexually abused by her father, the anime fangirls, the wiccans, the foreign students.  Somehow I was still too weird for them.  They'd talk about a dream of normalcy, in the long-distant future.  Weddings, white dresses, babies, being classy ladies.

Their prediction for me was that I'd always be the same.  Vector: Prince of all Outcasts.

Or something like that.  More like Vector: Obsessive Nerd.

Well, anyway.  I switched schools and escaped most of the bullshit people usually go through by getting put in a specialized, gradeless program; my hobbies were comic books, video games, continuing to build random things, and sneaking around undetected by whichever targets I chose.  I pretty much never entered the main campus.  Instead, I ended up being trapped by the aforementioned abusive "friend."  High school wasn't all that different in any respect.  As a result of my strictly avoidant policy, I was effectively incapable of holding a conversation when I entered college.  Spent a couple of years working on that and now I'm doing okay, but it was very, very tough for a while.

As far as the gender issues... oh, I don't even know.  I am who I am.  I'll always believe in protecting people, and part of me will always be on crusade, even as part of me laughs at the stupid little girl who always wanted to be one of the Big Heroes, better than good and stronger than strong.  Part of me will always feel far away from people.  I don't want to be a man, because I know that's not what I am; but I don't want to be a woman either, because I can't settle in there.  I end up trying to balance out the traits of whoever I'm around.  It's always about balance and symmetry.  Flexibility.  I can't really define myself with any sort of list of traits.  I always try, and I feel like I'm lying.

Usually I can ignore everything, but on some terrible mornings I wake up and it all feels wrong, like my body is crawling and just doesn't look or feel the way it should, and I can hardly stand myself.  I miss being young, when I could wear any clothing the boys wore and, "gendered" or not, it would still fit.  Nowadays I'd have to bind my chest on those days, get clothing that works despite my mother's constant radar for butchness and complete control of my purchases, convince my classmates (and professors) that it's okay for the girl with hair down to her knees to suddenly not have breasts, etc., etc.

The most disconcerting thing, I guess, is when I look at myself in the mirror and am shocked to see a girl's face.

But this isn't some thing where I want to be a guy.  I look at men, ask myself "Well?" and get a very kneejerk reaction of "no, that isn't you."

I don't really know what to do.  It isn't a big deal.  I don't have to live some other way.  I know that I don't need it.  I've accrued so much "respect" from so many people (and have enough privilege from other things) that, for now at least, I can get away with a lot of truly outrageous stuff without anyone being surprised in the least.

But sometimes, this life is really very uncomfortable.

[Christes]

Vector, that's very profound.  I actually feel similarly quite a bit, but it's difficult for me to articulate - especially right before bed.  I find gender to be very ... arbitrary, both biologically and sociologically.  It's like there's this whole piece of humanity that I am completely disconnected from, and I have very little control over it.  I often find myself wishing that I could live as a woman for a day, just to understand that part.  (I am male, by the way.  My profile doesn't specify a gender, and this is very intentional)  But I would probably be even more annoyed as a female.  Even better in my eyes would be some gender-neutral thing, but that raises all sorts of questions.  Something just doesn't feel right to me about how things are.

It's also funny that you mention the issue of what side buttons are on.  I have an admittedly unflexible wardrobe of button shirts and slacks.  It really bugs me that the buttons are always on the right side.  I actually do own a couple of blouses that have been bought accidentally over the years.  I've never had the guts to wear them in public.  I'm curious if anyone would even notice.

OT: Vector, I just saw the picture of you that was linked earlier.  You look exactly like one of my undergrad math professors.  Make of that what you will.

[mnjiman]

I guess the concept of thinking of other peoples feelings is a lost concept on some.
I guess learning to see other peoples prospective is also a lost concept as well.

If people wish to cause negativity, harm, hate, and pain to others I guess that is their choice to make.
If you seek these things, you will find them. That is all there is too it.

You may end up living a life full of nothing hate and pain if people live their lives in this manner though.
In the end, that is their choice.

In the end, all you can do sometimes is just let them suffer by their own hands.

[Interus]

I feel kind of weird about gender.  I absolutely hate gender rules, because I find them confining.  I want to be feminine, but I'm scared because I get bullied and see hatred whenever I slip up at all.  I'm so glad I took at least some psychology because, even though I know you're not supposed to self-analyze, it means I at least know there's a word for being so completely scared of the idea that somebody might not like you that you're afraid to talk.

The thing that makes me feel weird about gender is that, even though I don't want to be judged because I'm a guy, I know that I'm infinitely more comfortable talking to girls than I am to guys.  I don't expect girls to jump straight to insults if I accidentally mention that something seems cute to me.

I'm also not sure how I feel about my own gender.  I think I might be more happy if I'd been born a girl, but I'm not unhappy about being a guy.  Or at least, I don't think I am.  Not in the way I've seen transgender people describe it.  I just want to be allowed to be feminine.  I want it to be ok that I played with dolls with my only sister when we were little(she would have been playing alone otherwise, of course I'd join her when asked).  I don't want to be made fun of every time I make a female character in a game, which would be way more often if I didn't limit my female characters to female roles.  I wish it was acceptable for me to need a hug every once in awhile, and ask for one from one of my guy friends without it being gay.

Vector, I was actually mad at you for a little while because you seemed to be saying that sexism is only an issue that affects women because you're the ones being degraded when somebody uses feminine names as insults.  I can see why you'd be bothered by that, since it heavily implies that being a woman is bad but it really seemed like you were ignoring the fact that it's pretty much awful to have it implied that you're somehow a terrible person for not wanting to conform to gender roles, regardless of what gender you are.  I'm not any more, because it's stupid to be mad at somebody for being worried about issues that affect themselves.

I really need to get to bed instead of discussing about this, and I really need to read the rest of the thread.  Too bad I probably won't be on at all for a couple days. 

[Siquo]

Somebody asked me to come look at this thread, and given this post and Siquo's other post before it, I'd like to draw attention to the forum guidelines here.  Bigoted remarks will not be tolerated.

I have respected and shall respect the rules. I have no idea why that was reported.

*smirks, chuckles like I'm looking at a 5 year old really, really trying in vain to kick my ass... *

I am not trying to kick your ass! Please do not mistake my disagreeing with you as hostility, I really value your input, you post informed, nuanced facts and then form opinions on that rationally. And before you think this is sarcasm, it's not. I really was wondering how the same statement made by two different people is bigotism in one case, and self-deprecating humor in another. The statement or what it says does not change, and neither of the two people is actually a bigot.

You aren't one.

Nope. But in my defense, I live in Amsterdam, and even my 2-yr old daughter has seen plenty of drag already (although she has really trouble telling the difference. She's as unbigoted as they come ). This whole "trans is evil" thing, I can't relate to it nor do I know much about it, because it's not really an issue in my life or my surroundings.

If you're not trolling, then you're rather close to it

Nope, I am not. I just have... unorthodox opinions and a blunt way of putting them. And I "insult" people as a hobby in real life. On these forums I'm really trying my best not to as it's against guidelines. When a coworker comes in in teh morning, I might greet him with a heartily "My, you're looking especially awful today!" and I shall receive a "Yes, your mother kept me up all night" in response. Not too funny, but hey, the best we can do on a monday morning.

My compliments were genuine, but I don't wear velvet gloves. I get now why you're so paranoid about people complimenting you, but I assure you my intentions are pure. My way of expressing myself is just... blunt.

It's kinda disproved when you said this:

(In my defense, I never make jokes about rape, nor find them funny)

Why? Hum? Because if you making a rape joke makes it easier for someone else to rape up a woman in the street the next night, you implicitly take some responsibility for that?

Nope, because that is not the reason why I find them unfunny. There's other reasons to find certain jokes unfunny except for "it might set other people off doing the exact same thing". When my gf had just given birth I really needed to cut back on the dead-baby jokes, for instance.
My directness and bluntness is even the reason why I moved to this specific area; because people here are like that. Yes is yes, no is no, and calling someone an asshole is more likely to be interpreted as an observation than an insult. I realise now how badly this translates to the internet, and this is not the first time this has gone wrong in threads like these. *sigh* I'll just stick to the non-personal threads, I guess.

[Phmcw]

I sense the problem is that in Amsterdam or in Belgium, those joke are less offensive because they are less likely to be taken seriously. Just ask yourself if you were likely to appreciate a joke on Jews in 1935.

I have trouble imagining anyone I know indulging in such behavior described by Vector or Truean, and I think their life would be much easier in Belgium or in the Netherlands, thus the context is completely different.

Don't forget that we live in different societies, and that homophobia and misogyny come bundled with hard religion ; how many people in Amsterdam are hardcore Christians? Or for a better understanding : Would you laugh at these joke in you were raised in a Muslim family (hardcore Muslims are our own annoying religious peoples.) Would you tell them to a Muslim girl who is struggling against her family?

Edit : The bottom line is : a joke, any joke, can be used in two way. Either you're scratching an itch, engaging in self derision, shocking for the hell of it, and generally try to be funny, and that's ok, or you are trying to belittle the target of your joke, and that is generally not (there is exceptions of course, a joke who belittle Nazi or racists would be hardly offensive by my book).
I don't really suspect you to be trying to do the latter, but when someone has been harassed over something, telling her a bad joke and asking her to accept it is not likely to do any good.

[Siquo]

Yep, that's part of the miscommunication, I guess.

a joke who belittle Nazi or racists would be hardly offensive by my book

This is kind of my point: Why? They are people, too. I reject the notion of "I'm only intolerant to the intolerant", as you become one of the intolerants yourself. Hating nazi's or gaybashers makes you a bigot in my book. You don't have to agree with their ideas or actions (I'd rather you wouldn't...), but the concept of hating someone for his ideas, isn't that what we're fighting against?

Jews, nazis, gays, white, racists, assholes, muslims, atheists, women, male chauvinist pigs, white, black and the entire rainbow inbetween: you are all people, and all of equal worth in my regards, whether I agree with you or not. I also reserve the right (forum rules forbid me from doing so here, you're all safe) to insult all of those groups equally, using any ammunition possible. I do not make exceptions for "people with special needs" (well, except children, I'll insult them too but not as harshly), and shall blindly disregard any context of society that would affect said insult/joke.

[Leafsnail]

I have respected and shall respect the rules. I have no idea why that was reported.

Because you were specifically saying you would be happy to break the rules in future, so Toady came in to tell you not to.

Nope, I am not. I just have... unorthodox opinions and a blunt way of putting them. And I "insult" people as a hobby in real life. On these forums I'm really trying my best not to as it's against guidelines. When a coworker comes in in teh morning, I might greet him with a heartily "My, you're looking especially awful today!" and I shall receive a "Yes, your mother kept me up all night" in response. Not too funny, but hey, the best we can do on a monday morning.

This is fine, and yeah I do it too with friends who I know.  The thing is, when you make a sexist/ racist joke, you're randomly targetting a bunch of people you don't know.  This works when you're with a friend who will understand, not fine on the internet where anyone can read your joke (including those who are being targetted by it).

This is kind of my point: Why? They are people, too. I reject the notion of "I'm only intolerant to the intolerant", as you become one of the intolerants yourself. Hating nazi's or gaybashers makes you a bigot in my book. You don't have to agree with their ideas or actions (I'd rather you wouldn't...), but the concept of hating someone for his ideas, isn't that what we're fighting against?

When you make a joke to the effect that women are bad, you're attacking people.  When you make a joke to the effect that Nazis or sexists are bad, you're attacking a set of ideas.  Ideas which are extremely harmful, and which by all means deserve to be villified.  The people would be fine if they were to stop holding those ideas.

[Truean]

Alright Siquo, It's possible you're from The Netherlands , where people are pretty lax about... well damn near everything really and especially in Amsterdam. There are a lot of Dutch here actually, Capt Duck, seems to be of the best of you around here. It's a decent enough country, and as I said lax about nearly everything. This could conceivably explain what happened here to some degree. [Edit: just read Phmcw's post. He's right].

In short, I'll say it again:

The only possible redeeming quality is the possibility that you didn't realize you said it.

You may not have realized the flaming shitstorm into which you stepped, while projecting bravado mistaken for realization and willingness.

Prejudice in the U.S., has despite a national foundation proclaiming that "all men are created equal," been a massive problem and a violent one as a rule. Racism and sexism have a history of being institutionally accepted by the government and society at large.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

A while ago I offered 10 points if someone could recognize a sexism reference of threatening to hit a girl and send her to the moon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbCv6b96OK0&feature=fvwrel
(Check out the later parts of the video. It started out as "POW! Right in the kisser!" Then the moon stuff happened. That's right, this was the improved version!)
Pointed out Nicely by Family Guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b9ONh4FtlI&feature=related
And of course, as a musical complete with Stockholm Syndrome:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEAOGZwmIhA&feature=related

Isn't that just great? He's threatening domestic abuse against his wife on national television and everyone laughs and claps. It's his trademark and hey this was the #2 show in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_honeymooners and the creators, "wanted a realistic portrayal of life." Keep in mind, this was in the 1950s, when the censors were so powerful you couldn't say the word "pants" on TV, but this was perfectly ok and funny too!

Transphobia has been and still is the single worst and least discussed of these, and I have unwanted personal experience with it so it sends up red flags.

The most recent and public example, April 18th, 2011 is a lovely case of 1st and 2nd degree assault in Baltimore, Maryland in a McDonalds restaurant by McDonalds employees. What happened and why was she beaten to and past the point of having a seizure, in a 2 on 1 fight where her earrings got ripped out. She simply tried to use the bathroom:

Warning, this embedded video is very graphic and shows the actual crime being committed:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1379691/Transgender-girl-beaten-seizure-McDonalds-attack-victim-hate-crime.html

The breakdown:
The two suspects, ages 18 and 14, allegedly  did it because she was "flirting with her man." I don't believe this. She asked to use the bathroom.... Rule 34 guarantees there are guys somewhere who are turned on by that, notwithstanding, this isn't flirting. The Camera Man is a (former) McDonalds employee who at first looks like a bit of a hero for filming this, until you realize that he actually tells the  two girls beating the shit out of the victim to run before the cops come.... That's right, he doesn't care about protecting the young woman who got beaten half to death right in front of him, he cares about the people doing the beating.... The victim has actually went with this one, but I think it's just because she is upset that she is now famous as a transwoman and doesn't want to be, especially since she really just wanted to blend in.

Meanwhile, everyone just stands there and watches as this poor transwoman is beaten the shit out of and begs for it to stop. The best part, who at least tries to intervene? An old woman.... That's right, the rest of them sit back and enjoy the show, granny is the only one who thinks this is wrong enough to try to do something about it while the victim begs for it to stop.

This didn't just come out of the blue either. These people didn't just wake up one morning and say, "You know what, I'm going to kick the shit out of any transsexual who tries to use the bathroom." This happens all the time:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Transsexual+woman+assaulted&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=905e9081899b75b1&biw=1024&bih=574

This is incredibly recent stuff too!:
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/122528829.html May 24th, 2011

http://sfist.com/2011/04/15/transgender_youth_assaulted_near_16.php April 15th, 2011
(How the hell did this happen in San Francisco of all places?)

http://grand-divisions.blogspot.com/2010/12/transwoman-assaulted-at-kohls.html Dec 2nd, 2010
(How the fuck do the police not really care when someone puts their hand in your mouth and pulls out three of your fucking teeth!)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/10/lapd-seeks-help-in-case-of-assault-on-transgender-woman-in-hollywood.html October 27th, 2010

My God, half of these attacks end in broken jaws and other bones.... And these aren't usually reported in the mainstream media except as side notes.... The best part is police and EMS have a tendency of look down on you once they figure out you're trans.... *sigh*

I really was wondering how the same statement made by two different people is bigotism in one case, and self-deprecating humor in another. The statement or what it says does not change, and neither of the two people is actually a bigot.

To the extent you honestly didn't mean it like that, it's a step in the right direction. Even then, my problem is that it makes it harder to find the people who are doing it to make my life a living hell. These same people, who are the reason I was terrified to go to school as a child, blend in, and whether you realize it or not, when you're joking like this, it makes it easier for them to do so....

Additionally, there's a great big assumption in there, "neither of the two people is actually a bigot."
This isn't always true, and bigots rely on this assumption to hide. Also, self depreciating humor is easy to understand, you've got to be it to make fun of it.... The assumption behind it is that if you are the thing you're making fun of, then you don't have malice as a motive. Unless it makes sense to sincerely hate yourself and everyone else like you (reasonably considered rare if not nonexistent), then the exception for self depreciation is valid. 

[The Doctor]

I'm still up there, reading the gender thoughts, and I figured I'd put in my own two cents. It'll be a quicky.


I'm a transhumanist. I believe technology can help fix all or nearly all social and biological problems, as well as economic and environmental. One of those problems, to me, is the arbitrary dichotomy between MALE and FEMALE. It's one of my sincerest hopes that eventually, technology will enable us to either switch between the two on the fly, or, more to the point, just get rid of GENDER and leave HUMAN in it's place.

That's really all I want. To eventually get to the point where we can honestly say that everyone views everyone else as HUMAN (read: Sentient, and therefore worthy of the highest respect), even if they're an A.I. or even a bloody alien. Or just a really smart dolphin. 

You know, instead of how it is now, where you ask someone defining characteristics of someone and they'll rattle off a bunch of non-important physical characteristics, then the more important mental abilities, and finally that, oh yeah, same species, yeah?

Maybe I'm too much of a utopian. But hey, anything that gets us closer to THAT and away from THIS is better, even if we never get to the end goals.

[Bauglir]

This is kind of my point: Why? They are people, too. I reject the notion of "I'm only intolerant to the intolerant", as you become one of the intolerants yourself. Hating nazi's or gaybashers makes you a bigot in my book. You don't have to agree with their ideas or actions (I'd rather you wouldn't...), but the concept of hating someone for his ideas, isn't that what we're fighting against?

Jews, nazis, gays, white, racists, assholes, muslims, atheists, women, male chauvinist pigs, white, black and the entire rainbow inbetween: you are all people, and all of equal worth in my regards, whether I agree with you or not. I also reserve the right (forum rules forbid me from doing so here, you're all safe) to insult all of those groups equally, using any ammunition possible. I do not make exceptions for "people with special needs" (well, except children, I'll insult them too but not as harshly), and shall blindly disregard any context of society that would affect said insult/joke.

I don't necessarily see a problem with making fun of a philosophy as a general point, because it's something people think about and can choose. Maybe it's just me, but I see a sharp divide between mocking a person's beliefs vs mocking a person for a trait that is fundamentally tied to who that person is. That line can get murky, given how some beliefs are so core to how a person is defined, which is why despite what I just said, I wouldn't be cool with making jokes about Christianity at a church, because you're in a context where you're very, very likely to be upsetting someone deeply for your own amusement. Which is not cool. But there seems to be a definite conceptual divide between, say, being a Nazi and being black, as a for instance.

Of course, there's also the morality thing. If you find a given thing reprehensible, then mockery is often a valid avenue of attack, but it can't be your only one. You're going to need an actually valid argument that illustrates why this thing is inherently worthy of being mocked, so that when you offend someone who genuinely is part of it and they defend it, you can present a convincing argument for your side. In fact, this is pretty much the only situation where apologizing and shutting up with the jokes is not the only correct response. For Nazism, you can point out all the atrocities that are necessary consequences of applying it. For being transsexual... Yeah, I'm not seeing anything that makes it immoral, and I am doubtful that you can convince me, or anyone else that it is (which may not be something you actually want to do).

Ultimately, though, you really just have to be aware of why you're making the jokes you are. How are they contributing to a culture where the butts of your joke are victimized? Is somebody you're speaking to likely to be offended? Are you making the joke to express actual contempt for the subject, or are you just doing it as a means of small talk? You can't just get an acceptable answer to any one of these questions and insist that you're not doing anything wrong and anyone who objects is a censor. You need to check all of them, and I doubt that the 3 above are an exhaustive list. Context is actually vital, not irrelevant.

EDIT:
@The Doctor
Yes, that would be pretty much ideal. I think that it's a pipe dream in the short term (read: our lifespans), but on the other hand, every time I read about any related technology, I'm surprised by how far it's progressed, and I am trying to worm my way into working on it. Unfortunately, these issues exist and I think that they're going to have to be resolved before people forget about them. I don't think that, no matter how effectively technology advances, people are going to stop caring about their identities (for instance, gender identities) until there's a society where they don't have to constantly think about how that identity is impacting their daily life. Women are always going to care about being women for as long as they live in a culture where being a woman marks them as different, and constantly reminds them of that, and are always going to care about women's rights as long as there are women's rights issues to be resolved. For that matter, some men aren't going to be willing to give up being a man (which, on a subconscious level, is going to be linked with being on the good side of the status quo). I feel sure that most of our social problems will be carried over into the future, no matter how arbitrary they may be, because people aren't going to give up these identities while they have meaning. I know you didn't say that technology would magically fix everything, but I do feel that I have to temper your transhumanism argument with the counterargument that, whether it makes it possible or not is next to irrelevant compared to whether people will actually make that choice.

[blackmagechill]

Dam you Truean, damn you! I had a post, albeit small, that got interrupted.
So, I pretty much don't read this thread except for the stuff on feminism, because, being the  white-male-hetero demographic (the only thing that cuts me from that demo is that I'm a dirty atheist, and sometimes assumed to be gay), I don't really know much about it at all really, except that there should be any rules against somebody doing something because of how they were born/gender/sexuality, and equal wages, ect. and I was leaving a show at the powell last night, and since my dad had said that he didn't want to go (evne though he bought the tickets!), I went with a family friend, and the whole way there we were talking about movies and whatever, and we went to the show, which was great (Ira Glass), and then afterwards, hesitantly enough I asked her veiws on feminism. She said the obvious stuff (equal wages, no laws Against any gender), and then she went into the social aspect as well. It was pretty much that, in a family, certain roles work well, and, if those happen to be traditional gender roles, then why bother to avoid them? And then she said, as much as she hated this, traditional gender roles made her feel like a woman. Having someone out there under a truck while she was cooking made her feel good.
Any comments on this? I never went into the social aspect really.