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[Vector]

@Vector - :shrug: I tried. I guess I'm just a woman-beating chauvinist like the rest of them. But it would be great if you could at least limit it to accuse me of sexism based on my actual statements, and not also accuse me of it based on what I guess other people's opinions might be.

I didn't accuse you of sexism.

I tried to show you how your statements played into this entire huge issue.  There is a difference between a misogynist and someone whose actions help out with the misogynist problem.


@Truean: thanks for the backup.  Excellent posts, by the way =)

[SalmonGod]

Random Question @ Vector:  What would you list as some of the best portrayals of women in film/literature?

[Bauglir]

Kind of a late reply, sorry bout that. Interesting link; the numbers on admission aren't surprising, unfortunately. Neither is the psychological explanation (which I'm actually willing to believe without a reference, given its explanatory power). I do think there may have been a miscommunication somewhere along the line, though, since I'm not entirely sure how relevant it was to what I intended to get across with my earlier posts. Not complaining; more knowledge is never bad, unless Azathoth is involved. So, again, thanks for the link.

Just to try and rephrase it, I was originally hoping that the root of comments like that was a desire to be inflammatory in general, and not aimed at women's rights in particular (but taking that form because of the page the comment appeared on). That's hardly an excuse (it's not like the intent changes how it impacts the problem), and I apologize if I came off as defending the moron who made the comment in the first place. It's essentially the distinction between not knowing the right thing to do, and knowing the right thing to do and consciously choosing to do the exact opposite; "humor" through audacity (read: being a tasteless asshole, in this case) is the latter. I am not sure any longer why I thought it was preferable, though, and not knowing what thought process led to my earlier conclusion is somewhat worrisome.

At any rate, I'll just try to be more concise about my earlier definitions. "People cared about" was meant to be, in principle, Dunbar's Number rather than any sort of large-scale demographic thing, and a reference to the result of anonymity on the Internet. "Just" was meant to indicate a strict relationship in which misogyny was a subset of trolling in this case; consider that wording retracted, though, since it gets tangled up in issues of misogyny unrelated to trolling and I don't want to argue about that over what was an unfortunate word choice.

More and more I'm having to reconsider my conclusions. Annoying, at the moment, but it's nice to be challenged sometimes. Feels like progress.

[SalmonGod]

I am not sure any longer why I thought it was preferable, though, and not knowing what thought process led to my earlier conclusion is somewhat worrisome.

For me it's the notion that realizing they probably don't actually mean it = slightly less loss of faith in humanity

And no, it doesn't excuse the behavior

[Vector]

@Bauglir: Don't worry, just trying to explain to you why I hold this hard line on "let's not even joke about it, dudes" stuff.

What would you list as some of the best portrayals of women in film/literature?

Bam, my respect and happiness about you has suddenly increased again.

I hate to say this, but I haven't read that many books since I became more aware of this issue a few months ago, and haven't had much of a chance to reread a lot of my library.  A lot of my library was also written by dudes in the 1850s or earlier, and thus doesn't have many female characters in it.  And, furthermore, when I was younger I actively sought out works written by men and about men, because I was a misogynistic asshole.

And, furthermore, "best" portrayals do not necessarily mean "most positive."  So, I hope that the list to follow will suit.

That bit of apologia aside, I do have a few things I can recommend.  Some may not survive the harsh scrutiny of adulthood, but hopefully you'll enjoy them at least a bit.  Additionally, these aren't necessarily recommended for Feminism so much as other progressive narratives... but anyway.  Some of 'em are just books I really liked that happened to have interesting girls in them, even when they aren't the main focus of the story.

Spoiler: A loooong list, both of feminist works and stuff I just thought everyone should check out (click to show/hide)

(Some titles are in French, but you should be able to easily get good English translations.  Other titles are children's books.  I've tried to put in titles that portray women as women, instead of Women As Heroine Fetish-Objects, as is often seen in early Joss Whedon works and the like--but there's at least a couple Girl Power Fuck Yeah books in here.  Be warned that these aren't always free of "fridge-stuffing," i.e. having one female character and then killing her for "impact."  That's not very feminist, but on the other hand nothing's perfect.  So, read with care.)

Stuff by Tamora Pierce.  Her writing's not the best technically, but I really appreciate what she tried to do--and what she did.
Stuff by L. Frank Baum (Wizard of Oz guy).  He's the reason why I ended up dressing up as a transgendered person when I was five, without ever thinking such a thing was weird.
Jacob Have I Loved.
A Girl of the Limberlost.  The sequel to this novel set up alarm bells so strongly in my head that I noticed them even when I was reading it in middle school/elementary school, but I seem to remember really liking this one.
Jane Eyre.  One of those "progressive for the time" books that instead relies on bashing folks with mental health issues and the poor (as well as the French), but it really has a relatively strong female portrayal.
Bridge to Terabithia.
The Westing Game.
A Separate Peace, for what I thought was a welcome treatment of gay themes, mental health, etc.
A Song of Ice and Fire, which does have some problems with women-as-fetish-objects at the same time as it does some very realistic and welcome portrayals.
V for Vendetta (comic book version).  I was really, really impressed with Evey, especially given what happened to Laurie in Watchmen.
Madame Bovary.  A woman portrayed overwhelmingly negatively, but a very, very full and complex characterization.  A critique of both a certain kind of woman, and of a society that destroys her.
Germinal.  This is mostly about classism, but I found the portrayal of the women within refreshing.
La Symphonie Pastorale.  This is a primer on What Not To Do.  Not nominating it for female portrayal so much as creepy, advantage-taking dude portrayal, which I found terrifying.
Passion Simple.  I only read a (long) excerpt from this in my French class, but it was very interesting.
If Only it were True (novel version).  I didn't understand this fully when I first read it in middle school or so, I have to say.  My French wasn't strong enough (you can read it in English).
L'Ecole des Femmes.  This one is very, very, very good.  I always cry.
La Guerre de Troi N'aura Pas Lieu.  This one is both feminist and anti-war.  I enjoyed the fact that there's both good, wise women and stupid, selfish, petty women in it.
Antigone (Anouilh).
The English Patient.  I don't know if I agree with the main theme of this novel, but in general it's food for thought, mostly on race--and beautifully written, and also just interesting in general.
Le Sabotage Amoureux.  This one also has the advantage of being absolutely hilarious, and also having queer/racial/class themes treated very, very well, in a not-very-anvily sort of way.
Tess of the D'Urbervilles.  This one takes an assload of analysis to really get a handle on, but it's... very moving.
Huis Clos.  More women negatively portrayed in what I considered a very skillful way.
Proof.  I find plays as written better most of the time, because I like being able to read the stage directions.  You may have a different opinion.
Le Mariage de Figaro (Beaumarchais).  Classism.  Also an amazingly fun countess.
Arcadia (Stoppard).  I still don't know quite what happened in this, but it was great while it kept going.
Abraham Lincoln's Big Gay Dance Party.  I... am not kidding about this.  It's exactly what it says on the tin.  Anyway, I saw it performed.  The writing isn't that great, but by goodness, it was really trying to do a good job and had some moments that were very touching.
Pierre et Jean.  A study on a different sort of inequity.  Also, incest-studies-ho!
Cyrano de Bergerac.  I really liked Roxane's portrayal in this.  This is also another thing that I'm apparently incapable of reading without collapsing in a fountain of tears.  Probably read it four or five times.
Sarrasine (Balzac).  This one is also absolutely phenomenal.
Les Muets (Camus).  Classism.
The Great Gatsby.  More classism...
The Grapes of Wrath.  Claaaaaaassism.
Of Mice and Men.  This is another one of the ones I'm throwing on this list because massive creepy when you reread it through a feminist sort of lens.  Also, racial issues.
Enfant Noir (Camara Laye).  A book about fairly-tribal Africa.  Also an autobiography.  Also very well-written and interesting.
Pere Goriot (Balzac).  Some of the most stomach-wrenching classism I've ever had the "pleasure" of reading about.
Dracula (Stoker).  Dated and problematic in places, but boy did I love Mina Harker when I read this.
High Fidelity.  I thought it was an interesting exploration of men's problems, in the changing political atmosphere.
A Raisin in the Sun, both for people of color issues, classism, and so on--and also for awesome ladies doing awesome things.


A couple things I'm throwing in just because I love them and they don't get nearly enough lip service:

Rhinoceros, La Lecon, La Cantatrice Chauve.  All of these are works by a guy named Ionesco, who, much like Heller in Catch-22, wrote a bunch of things about society driving you insane.  The difference is that his experience was not with the military, but with the inane examples in old grammar textbooks.  It shows.  Rhinoceros, in particular, is really great.
Le Malentendu, La Peste, L'Etranger (Camus)
Le Voyageur Sans Bagages (Anouilh)
The Wind-Up Bird Chronicles (Murakami)
A la recherche du temps perdu (Proust).  I know they say "Only English majors read that," but it's worth the time.  I've only read about half of the series.  Absolutely loved it.
Stuff (novels, poems, and plays) by Victor Hugo, who was obviously trying very, very hard to be progressive, but was also very, very interested in architecture.  His stuff didn't make the list for the reason that it's generally too problematic to really fly, and also that his beef was more screwing around with literary devices, languages, and tropes (I am looking at YOU, Hernani) than talking about the issues in question.  On the other hand, he wrote a whole lot of stuff about being poor, handicapped, female, religious, a prostitute, or a person of color.  The Hunchback of Notre Dame is practically revolutionary in that respect.  The Last Day of a Condemned Man... not so much.
Le Fantome de L'Opera (Leroux).  Just go read this, because it's good.  Also, in many parts, hilarious.
Les Jeux Sont Faits (Sartre), if you can find a copy in English.

Phew.  Long list, pretty much no films or TV because I see basically no films with strong, interesting, well-developed female characters.  Ever.  But then, they often don't have very developed male characters, either, so... whatever =)

[SalmonGod]

Totally ok.  I'm actually not looking for anything overtly feminist, but more just interested in the opinion of someone who is probably very conscious of what constitutes tasteful/acceptable/progressive/interesting female characters.  Anxiety over this issue has been one of my major barriers to any serious attempts at writing.  It's something where I really don't even know how to judge my own understanding of the subject.

[Vector]

Totally ok.  I'm actually not looking for anything overtly feminist, but more just interested in the opinion of someone who is probably very conscious of what constitutes tasteful/acceptable/progressive/interesting female characters.  Anxiety over this issue has been one of my major barriers to any serious attempts at writing.  It's something where I really don't even know how to judge my own understanding of the subject.

Ah, okay!  Well, I thank you for your interest in my opinion.

I'd say that the first step is worrying about it, which you seem to have down =)  And then, read a lot, both blog entries and stuff and normal books.  Read stuff on every side.  Think about it critically.  I have a particular brand of feminism, but other folks have different points of view, different insights on the problem of privilege and so on, and they have lots of neat stuff to say, too.  So, I'd say... go out, and play, and have a good time.

And then, once in a while, go read something like The Professor (also Bronte), and play "problematic work bingo" to check your skills.  Close readings are really good practice for your future work =)

I'll try to keep mentioning stuff here that I thought was particularly good as I find it, though.  Seems like it could be a good idea.

[Patchouli]

The Wind-Up Bird Chronicles (Murakami)

Fistbumps all around!

[SalmonGod]

Thanks.  Also curious:  No tv/film/anime comes to mind with decent female characters?

Ok here's a question... if you have seen it, what did you think of Death Proof?

[Vector]

An essay on Disney's Tangled.

Strong warning: transphobia, particularly towards transwomen.

This thing is bloody vile.

Thanks.  Also curious:  No tv/film/anime comes to mind with decent female characters?

Ok here's a question... if you have seen it, what did you think of Death Proof?

I am dead sad about this, but the only damn thing I can think of is Lost, and that's getting most of its points for a. Hurley, b. Locke, and c. my unsecret crush on Benjamin Linus (horrible, creepy bastard extraordinaire).  Well, okay, and seemingly well-done drug addiction, an openly gay (side) character, the (so I hear) well-done dynamic of the Korean couple, and a better job of tokenism than could have been done.

On the other hand, I've heard some backlash over the black characters, and I'm just going to say here that I am just slightly pissed about the way that the female characters were handled in general.  "Fanservice?  HAVE SOME MORE FANSERVICE.  Excuse me while we stuff MORE women in fridges and marginalize their roles in what's to come.  I think, in fact, that we should kill... oh, pretty much all of them."

Same thing for the people of color.  I'm not happy about that.

Didn't pass either version of the Bechdel test with flying colors, IIRC--passed, but it felt a bit close.  Given that they had 6 seasons and more than enough female characters/people of color to work with, I have to say that that's pretty pathetic.

However, they did a really, really good job with the stuff that they did well on, so I'd still give it a watcheroo, if not for the roles women play.  I liked some of the female characters, but none of them really stood out in my mind.


I don't watch many TV shows or movies.  TV shows: I've seen Firefly, Dr. Horrible, much of House, Red Dwarf, Father Ted, parts of Castle, the first season of Numb3rs, little parts of Frasier, the Nodame Cantabile dorama, and... that's pretty much it.

For me, none of those make the cut for female characters.  One of my criteria is non-fetishization.  Another one is non-othering.  A third is characterization that's not totally flat/"typed."  That pretty much takes care of all of those, except perhaps Nodame.  I cut that one due to all the violence against women played for laughs, much as I loved that show.  I'd still suggest that you watch it =)

Movie-wise, I tend to watch mindscrews or action movies (specifically: Batman, Snatch, The Usual Suspects, that sort of stuff).  Those usually just employ women as set-dressing.  The other category I watch, thanks to my mom, is chick flicks.  What with the low budget and all that's typical, they don't tend to be the strongest in terms of writing.

The very, very best movie I've ever seen in terms of female presence and personality would probably be The Black Swan, and as some of the comments (but probably not the one you're thinking of) show, even that was bloody full of problems.  In any case, that's really the only movie I can remember liking that had a female main character portrayed with any subtlety/engaging personality at all.

Oh, well.

And Amelie.

And Pan's Labyrinth.

Go watch 'em, they're really good.  I forgot them because they're stored under different colors in my head.  Haven't seen Death Proof, no.


Now, for anime/manga...

See, I can play up loads of stuff for genderqueer stuff, because mainstream Eastern philosophy (but I'm thinking of mostly Chinese, I believe) theoretically believes that a balance between masculine and feminine energies is best.  I can also bring up crud like Metal Gear Solid, in which there is universal sexual objectification and plenty of women kicking ass (especially for the genre), and scenes played like rape that have lasting effects on both watcher and character.  Then, I can say that there's loads of shows with one guy and loads and loads of girls.  There's even plenty of stories with no guys at all!

Most of those shows still involve personality typing and a hell of a lot of sexual objectification.  I wanted to add Ghost in the Shell to the list of works with awesome female characters.  Then I remembered how the camera just can't seem to move away from her tits, ass, and crotch, and she's often standing there with her entire torso in the camera's view, talking, her face invisible.  A mannequin.

And that's why I can't say Motoko Kusunagi is a feminist character.

I don't really have the energy to think through my list of favorite anime and manga right now, in order to say which are feminist and which are not so strongly feminist.  However, I can give you the entire list of stuff I tend to like/find worth watching, because that doesn't take much thought.  Please note that many/most of these works are deeply problematic.  Motoko having her head cut off so often in favor of boob shots is only the beginning.  Most of these works still focus on the male point of view, male experience, and so on, sacrifice women for male character development, and offer undeveloped female personalities.

Again... don't have time to do an analysis on all this stuff.  Manga and anime that would otherwise be okay often ends up with groping jokes in it, and so on... fetishization.  Marginalization.  Portrayal of women's stories as "lesser."  Women are forced to either take up male identities and stereotypical traits in order to be successful, or killed, or delegated to side roles...

The top block is the best I can recommend in terms of feminism and strong female characters.  All the rest of the series on the list have (obvious) issues, or I haven't seen enough to decide.  I will likely stream some my favorites at some point, along with commentary.

Spoiler: Another loooong list (click to show/hide)

Serial Experiments Lain (anime)
Kino's Journey (anime)
Wolf's Rain (anime)
Last Exile (anime)
X-Day (manga)
After School Nightmare (manga)
Revolutionary Girl Utena (anime)

Jin-Roh (movie)
Dragonball (manga only)
Ranma 1/2 (manga)
Saikano (manga)
Neon Genesis Evangelion (anime)
Paranoia Agent (anime)
FLCL (anime)
Ghost in the Shell (anime)
Rurouni Kenshin (manga)
Samurai Deeper Kyo (manga)
Death Note (manga)
Nodame Cantabile (manga, dorama)
Mushishi (manga)
Sayonara, Zetsubou Sensei (manga, anime)
Clover (manga)
Azumanga Daioh (anime)
Lucky Star (anime)
Samurai Champloo (anime)
Hellsing (anime)
Trigun (anime)
Fruits Basket (manga)
Rahxephon (anime)
School Rumble (manga)
Demon Diary (manga)
Gensoumaden Saiyuki (manga)
Zone of the Enders (anime)
One Piece (manga)
Card Captor Sakura (manga)
Kami-Chama Karin (manga)
Cowboy Bebop

[scriver]

he's "mansplaining" (I hate her just for that word)

I hope to god you never use the word "bitching" to mean complaining--and never, ever let anyone else get away with it, either, without letting them know how much you hate them.

I reacted to "mansplain" when I read the blog as well, but I was going to let it go, because of derail and all that shit. Seeming as it came up anyway, I don't feel like I can just let it pass.

Because it's not fucking cool. You are not allowed to be upset about woman or "female" words/concepts being used in derogatory ways, and then use man or "male" shit the very same way yourself, without being a hypocrite. "You do it, so I can do it too" is no a sufficient excuse for using sexist language. If it were, then you've just justified the misogynic language and slang being used today. If you want to combat the sexism surging through our society, then you damn well better not be part of sustaining it yourself.

The term "mansplaining" is employed in that woman's particular blog to:

Men who dodge women's questions in order to waste time "educating" the woman in question about something obvious.

Not men in general.  Just people acting in an oppressive way and abusing power they possess.

"Bitching," however, is a general term for that thing all women do.  Complaining.  Like a bitch.  A female dog.  An animal.

No, that's not what it means. The expression implies that because it is a man explaining it, it is of less or no value and automatically bad/wrong and void. It's not just clever, it's not just snide, it's offensive and hurtful. That you're forcing explanations to apologise for and justify it makes me even sadder.

Because you know, the same excuse can be made about "bitching" - it can be said to not refer to "women in general", just people or the women who complains. It's just rationalisations and apologetics. Hell, she doesn't even make a comparison to something else considered bad/lesser worth (ie, a female dog), she just plainly uses "man" like it was inherently disparaging and without value. And that is, big fucking surprise, sexist and extremely insulting.

If you still can't relate to what I'm saying, then consider this for a moment - how would you feel if I or somebody else used the phrase "womansplaining" to disregard and demean this blogger's analysis, or an interview with any female politician? It's not a very small deal, is it?

I'm sorry for the derailish rant, but I can't just let it slide, just as I try to never let misogyny go uncalled-out when I encounter it. And I don't think you should ignore or downplay it either, if you want to call yourself a "progressivist" with any form of credibility.

[Truean]

@Truean: thanks for the backup.  Excellent posts, by the way =)

What do you think of JRR Tolkien's Dwarves? They seem to be "equal" physically across sex to the point where they have beards, all of them (as was the case in DF originally). Sadly the race dies out because there aren't enough ... wodwarfs (?) to make enough dwarf babies.... Particularly appropriate to ask here, you know... Dwarf Fortress... and all.

he's "mansplaining" (I hate her just for that word)

I hope to god you never use the word "bitching" to mean complaining--and never, ever let anyone else get away with it, either, without letting them know how much you hate them.

I reacted to "mansplain" when I read the blog as well, but I was going to let it go, because of derail and all that shit. Seeming as it came up anyway, I don't feel like I can just let it pass.

Because it's not fucking cool. You are not allowed to be upset about woman or "female" words/concepts being used in derogatory ways, and then use man or "male" shit the very same way yourself, without being a hypocrite. "You do it, so I can do it too" is no a sufficient excuse for using sexist language. If it were, then you've just justified the misogynic language and slang being used today. If you want to combat the sexism surging through our society, then you damn well better not be part of sustaining it yourself.

The term "mansplaining" is employed in that woman's particular blog to:

Men who dodge women's questions in order to waste time "educating" the woman in question about something obvious.

Not men in general.  Just people acting in an oppressive way and abusing power they possess.

"Bitching," however, is a general term for that thing all women do.  Complaining.  Like a bitch.  A female dog.  An animal.

No, that's not what it means. The expression implies that because it is a man explaining it, it is of less or no value and automatically bad/wrong and void. It's not just clever, it's not just snide, it's offensive and hurtful. That you're forcing explanations to apologise for and justify it makes me even sadder.

Because you know, the same excuse can be made about "bitching" - it can be said to not refer to "women in general", just people or the women who complains. It's just rationalisations and apologetics. Hell, she doesn't even make a comparison to something else considered bad/lesser worth (ie, a female dog), she just plainly uses "man" like it was inherently disparaging and without value. And that is, big fucking surprise, sexist and extremely insulting.

If you still can't relate to what I'm saying, then consider this for a moment - how would you feel if I or somebody else used the phrase "womansplaining" to disregard and demean this blogger's analysis, or an interview with any female politician? It's not a very small deal, is it?

I'm sorry for the derailish rant, but I can't just let it slide, just as I try to never let misogyny go uncalled-out when I encounter it. And I don't think you should ignore or downplay it either, if you want to call yourself a "progressivist" with any form of credibility.

Yeah, no. No to all of this. You kinda missed and made this way overcomplicated. The answer is way simpler.

False Connection:

"Mansplain" = "bitching." Nopes.

Real Meaning:

It's not an insult like that and at worst a sort of snarky backhanded compliment:
Kinda like "Wow, you look much thinner THAN YOU USUALLY DO!" or "Every room you leave is better! " [because you left it, not cause you were there in the first place].

The root word is "explain" or "to clarify something," but wait, it has "man" replacing "ex" as a prefix. Huh?

This is because it's snarkily pointing out that, only a man can explain things because women aren't capable of understanding.

Sort of a "Don't worry your pretty little head about it. You wouldn't understand anyhow. Now get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich. And if you forget to cut the crust off ,one'a these days Alice, one'a these days, bam zoom straight to the moon *makes fist punching motion in an uppercut.*

Ten points if you can point out the "straight to the moon" reference....

Its kind of like an African American person pretending to be dumb and saying "O yes masser (master)," because the white person is "clearly smarter and needs to explain this to the clearly not smarter black person." If you haven't caught on, the black person is calling the white one an asshole for talking down to him on account of being black.

Summation: She's not saying he's bitching. She's saying he's talking down to her, who as a woman couldn't possibly understand anyhow. Naturally, as a man, he does understand and thus is the only one capable of explaining or "mansplaining." She is calling him on the carpet for talking down to her.

"Thanks for mansplaining [explaining] that to me, cause clearly little ole' me is too fucking stupid to understand without your guidance. Here's your sandwich sir...."

If you still can't relate to what I'm saying, then consider this for a moment - how would you feel if I or somebody else used the phrase "womansplaining" to disregard and demean this blogger's analysis, or an interview with any female politician? It's not a very small deal, is it?

If the vast majority of women routinely talked down to men, because they thought all men were functionally mentally handicapped, and the men called the women on the carpet for it by using the term "womansplaining." I'd be fine with it. The use of the term....

[Truean]

On the subject of nutrition, which has somehow gotten to the forefront of the economy, war, and all those issues that aren't nutrition, the government seems to be concerned about nutrition, lately, for now. It's a lovely distraction you see. Speaking of distractions:

"Yeah I don't have a job and I'm screwed; but (either):

a.) At least we don't have transfats anymore!
or
b.) At least they haven't made the good food illegal!"

God damn it, why can't they make broccoli taste like steak? I just want them to figure out an incredibly difficult and most probably impossible thing so I can have good tastes that are good for me (<----- the most probably impossible thing). Is that too damn much to ask?

It can't be that hard. This crazy Japanese son of a bitch did it with poop. No really, poop:
http://www.naturalnews.com/032715_turd_steaks_human_waste.html

Once again, Japan fails miserably while being equal parts inventive and creepy. Someone take away this guy's crap, give him some broccoli and take away his ... whatever the hell he likes... until he makes a steak out of something we want steak made out of! It's about the only way I can see him redeeming himself for what he's done.

P.S. You're about 20 years behind McDonalds. They've been doing this for years....

These politicians, they can all get down to shifting the blame for major problems to people who aren't them later, I wants my broccoli steaks that tastes like steaks!

Come on people, my mostly legit plans at world domination ain't gonna happen if I can't have all the tasty things I want.... And we all know that when a villan mastermind can't hack it at world "domination" it's a short step to world "damnation" or "destruction." And then you gotta deal with some jackass movie producer and some bigger jackass "hero" trying to stop you while he's being filmed. Don't these people know how the fuck much a death ray costs? Gah!

Shifting the topic away from unneeded, classic villan mastermind confession to and explanation of the plan, the answer to decent nutrition is actually really simple and yes: making brocolli taste like steak isn't that far off from it.

We need better chefs!
Namely we need ones who can make things that taste bad but are good for you, still be good for you but taste good. Unfortunately, we have these chefs, but they're way too damn expensive because their recipes and patented awesomeness aren't widely produced!

Thus we munch of lean pockets instead of the awesomeness these guys can make.

[DJ]

@Bauglir: Don't worry, just trying to explain to you why I hold this hard line on "let's not even joke about it, dudes" stuff.

OK, this is the one thing about you that I just can't understand. It's fine if you don't understand certain kinds of humour, but why the hell do you have to butt in with a friggin sermon every time somebody makes a joke that's not to your taste?

[Africa]

@Vector - :shrug: I tried. I guess I'm just a woman-beating chauvinist like the rest of them. But it would be great if you could at least limit it to accuse me of sexism based on my actual statements, and not also accuse me of it based on what I guess other people's opinions might be.

I didn't accuse you of sexism.

I tried to show you how your statements played into this entire huge issue.  There is a difference between a misogynist and someone whose actions help out with the misogynist problem.

You accused me of "perpetuating misogyny." You also accused millions of other people of it, none of whom you've ever met, and a lot of which are women. This isn't a good way to get people to take you seriously - making sweeping accusations against people you know nothing about - particularly when I'm taking the time to try and have a reasonable discussion.

And while on the hunt for misogyny, you should really keep in mind that if you can't objectively explain to someone why a certain speech or interaction was misogynistic, and in what ways it was different than how the same situation would have gone if the genders of the parties involved had been different, people (like me ITT) are going to view you as the boy who cried wolf.


Anyway, it seems the UN Human Rights Council is beefing up support for gay rights. Just saw a headline about it somewhere but I can't find it now. I guess they're introducing something specific about the right to your own sexual orientation being a human right? Not sure. Talk about an uphill battle...but it's progress.