Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 36 37 [38] 39 40 ... 852

Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 857877 times)

sluissa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #555 on: June 15, 2011, 10:17:09 pm »

I feel I have to correct something here.

The Three worlds system is a very outdated and misused set of terms. In this case, it's being used in a completely wrong way. (Even if you go by Mao's definition, which I'm not.)

The First, Second, Third world definitions came about during the Cold war. First world, included the US, Western Europe and their allies. The second world was the communist led countries, including the Soviet Union and China. The third world was basically everywhere else there was for the first two to fight over, including large portions of South and Central America, the Middle East, Africa as well as most East Asian countries, notably Korea and Vietnam.

While there is some correlation between a third world label and that country being poor, it's not really meant to be an economic term at all. It's entirely political.

*Deep Breath*

You may continue.
Logged

Truean

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ok.... [sigh] It froze over....
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #556 on: June 15, 2011, 10:17:51 pm »

Then whats your issue man?

Just loving how everyone's answer to all problems is to "Spend Less." :P
Logged
The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Vector

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #557 on: June 15, 2011, 10:20:23 pm »

Wow, thanks for the info, Sluissa!  I'd never thought to look that up, and it's very interesting.
Logged
"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

freeformschooler

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #558 on: June 15, 2011, 11:10:06 pm »

This article about reddit looks almost slightly legit until the end, where you'll potentially feel stupider for reading the whole thing. I would have facepalmed, but I was too busy laughing.
Logged

Siquo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Procedurally generated
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #559 on: June 16, 2011, 03:42:26 am »

Well, the shift from "Taking care of your consumers/employees" to "Fuck em all" isn't so much a problem of then as it has always been that way (despite some shining beacons like mr Ford, but those are (and always have been) rare).

Nowadays, it's easier. Why? Consider trolls.

Of every company that fucked you over in any way possible (selling you overpriced crappy products, no service, lying, deceitful marketing, etc), do you know who is responsible for that? The person, I mean? Probably not. And even if the company name itself is ruined, you can always call it quits (or better yet: go bankrupt but make sure your own bankaccount is filled) and start a new one. The anonymity in which most employees but also employers and shareholders operate makes it far more likely that they will be less... moral and long-term in their choices.

I think it's time to reinstate the pillory. ;) Problem now is that it'll be so busy, you still won't remember who was a fuckwad and who wasn't.
I wish I knew the answer to this one.
Logged

This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Truean

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ok.... [sigh] It froze over....
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #560 on: June 16, 2011, 12:55:04 pm »

Well, the shift from "Taking care of your consumers/employees" to "Fuck em all" isn't so much a problem of then as it has always been that way (despite some shining beacons like mr Ford, but those are (and always have been) rare).

Nowadays, it's easier. Why? Consider trolls.

Of every company that fucked you over in any way possible (selling you overpriced crappy products, no service, lying, deceitful marketing, etc), do you know who is responsible for that? The person, I mean? Probably not. And even if the company name itself is ruined, you can always call it quits (or better yet: go bankrupt but make sure your own bankaccount is filled) and start a new one. The anonymity in which most employees but also employers and shareholders operate makes it far more likely that they will be less... moral and long-term in their choices.

I think it's time to reinstate the pillory. ;) Problem now is that it'll be so busy, you still won't remember who was a fuckwad and who wasn't.
I wish I knew the answer to this one.

Strangely, you're absolutely correct and probably didn't even know it. It's all about how businesses are organized.

Simplified Definitions:
Corporation: Creation of an "artificial entity (person)" to hold assets and be subject to liabilities and taxes. This is separate and apart from the owners, who are often called "Shareholders" in larger corps. Though ownership through stock is not required per se. Generally, the owners, officers, etc of a corporation are not personally liable for corporate actions unless the corporate veil can be pierced in certain specified instances. They sure do make all the decisions though....

Partnership: A business union between two or more persons who always remain personally liable for partnership activities. A partnership is not a separate entity but rather a collection of individuals sharing in part of some operation for shared profit and losses. The partnership itself does not pay taxes, rather the individual partners do based on what portion of the partnership they own.

Professions are not and should not be like any other business and you're wrong if you disagree:
Traditionally, there were "The Professions," Law, medicine, investment banking, accounting, and they HAD TO BE PARTNERSHIPS. We didn't feel comfortable letting people hide behind some fictitious corporate name and wanted the individuals running these high skill, high consequence professions known. A law practice usually had to feature the names of the individual attorneys because then you knew who to go after if shit hit the fan. Some changes have been made, but it is still largely that way in law.

Investment banking used to be this way, but now it isn't. This is why Goldman Sachs started out as a partnership, with Marcus Goldman and his Son in Law Samuel Sachs. It was a partnership for over 100 years. Then in 1999, the company made its own IPO and slowly incorporated. Shit has gone downhill since.

WHY IT MATTERS:
Professionals had partnerships because the idea was they had (and still have) PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBLITIES. A doctor could loose a license to practice medicine. A lawyer could be disbarred (lose a license to practice law). An accountant could be stripped of CPA status (lose a license to be an CPA). And yes, an investment Banker could lose their professional licenses too.

Shareholders DO NOT HAVE PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBLITIES. They don't care, period. Their only concern is to make money by hook or by crook. The professionals, had to care about a whole lot more or face losing not only their jobs, but their ability to get a job in that line of work EVER AGAIN. THIS IS WHY WE TRADITIONALLY KEPT SHAREHOLDERS THE HELL OUT OF PROFESSIONS. That way the professionals were making the money decisions which in turn made it a hell of a lot easier to abide by their professional responsibilities.

Aftermath of incorporation of the professions:
Ever since Goldman and many other investment firms incorporated, it has all been downhill. Now they have to please unpleasable shareholders who want one thing "MORE!" They don't care how you get it or what risks you have to take. They don't care if you invent sub prime mortgages and loans that are risky as hell because you know or should know they aren't going to be paid back. The shareholders own the place and thus they are always right, even and especially when they are wrong. The professionals, who actually know something, are told to shut up by the people with more money than brains and take "risks" in order to get greater returns. By "risks" we mean, "something no sane professional would have done 30 years ago with good reason." The professional would have never done this because he would've been personally liable in his/her partnership as the shareholder is not and cannot be.

Summation:
Professionals used to have partnerships (and never corporations) to link their financial decisions and accountability to their professional responsibilities. The risks were made personal and you knew if you screwed up you would be called on the carpet about it in front of the state board and screwed over. Now with professions being "just like any other business" (read incorporated), you have a fundamental conflict of interest between people who don't care how the money gets made or who gets hurt making it, and the people who know better and are personally accountable. The moron shareholders aren't personally accountable. There are no state boards to call shareholders on the carpet. The shareholders have the gold and he with the gold rules....

Dollar signs have taken the place of warning signs.

What we should do:
Return to professional partnerships. Forcibly unincorporate and disband corporations with an ownership interest in professions like investment banking, because shareholders have no place there. This will, of course, never happen, because the shareholders of Goldman Sachs (the vast majority of whom are not even capable of understanding investment banking) have more money than god. The old way of "Making partner" was to work in the firm for years and this had the vital function of making sure the people who owned the place knew what the hell they were doing because they had worked there for decades.... Now you purchase a share of stock in Goldman like it's a (expensive) carton of milk, and you're a part owner in one of the most important business entities in the world and you're able to tell it what to do.... *sigh*

When it is my own name on the sign I care.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 01:16:30 pm by Truean »
Logged
The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Africa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #561 on: June 16, 2011, 01:03:48 pm »

@SalmonGod: Huh? As in, we're a third world country but there's a small population of obscenely wealthy people? Or as in, we're a third world country but most of the population is comparatively obscenely wealthy? Because our poor people ARE obscenely wealthy by world standards, but I'm not sure where the third world country comes in.

Then how come most of the young adults I know with college degrees are struggling to find employment that they can more than scrape by on, or have mostly given up and just live with their parents?

Most of them have various cheap gadgets that they accumulate over time and grant the appearance of not being dirt poor, but then many of those are commonly gifts from their elders who got financially established when there was more opportunity, and even if all their irresponsible expenditures over time were combined, would not amount to much against real expenses such as a mortgage.

Could just be where I live, just outside of Indianapolis... which looks luxurious compared to the rural life if you drive out just half an hour, where you can find small towns that really do look like they're in a third world country.

Things may be shitty, but third world? Have you seen any third world countries? Hell, I haven't...unless Egypt counts, though there's some mighty terrible places in Egypt. But America has a long way down to go before it's third world, even in immigrant slums and Appalachia.
Logged
Quote from: Cthulhu
It's like using hobos to fight an eating-resistant baloney epidemic.

Truean

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ok.... [sigh] It froze over....
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #562 on: June 16, 2011, 02:50:41 pm »

Um, when you're tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt you can't even discharge in bankruptcy and there simply are no jobs (or rather there just aren't enough and many millions of people simply won't have them no matter what), it doesn't matter.

The current generation of recent college grads has every right to say things are a 3rd world country for them. There are older, richer people out there but as far as their prospects.... Live at home, if you even can, relentlessly search for a job with no success.... Your student loans come due and you have no money to pay for them....  Then what?

Meanwhile, college just keeps getting more and more expensive every year.... What are you supposed to do. (Question mark purposefully omitted). All those things that "keep it from being a 3rd world country" don't apply to you. You end up living off the charity of your parents which is quickly exhausted and you're off to minimum wagin' at whatever the crap job you can scrape up which certainly doesn't require the degree you are in o so much debt for.... You are then worse off for having gone to college because you are in the same crap job you could've gotten without a degree with all of the debt that you simply can't get rid of.... And then there's the interest. That keeps on building up driving you even DEEPER into debt. Yeah, can't escape. Can't even do anything to keep from sinking further. You have a mortgage payment but no house....
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 02:53:37 pm by Truean »
Logged
The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

alway

  • Bay Watcher
  • 🏳️‍⚧️
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #563 on: June 16, 2011, 03:32:37 pm »

Um, when you're tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt you can't even discharge in bankruptcy and there simply are no jobs (or rather there just aren't enough and many millions of people simply won't have them no matter what), it doesn't matter.

The current generation of recent college grads has every right to say things are a 3rd world country for them. There are older, richer people out there but as far as their prospects.... Live at home, if you even can, relentlessly search for a job with no success.... Your student loans come due and you have no money to pay for them....  Then what?

Meanwhile, college just keeps getting more and more expensive every year.... What are you supposed to do. (Question mark purposefully omitted). All those things that "keep it from being a 3rd world country" don't apply to you. You end up living off the charity of your parents which is quickly exhausted and you're off to minimum wagin' at whatever the crap job you can scrape up which certainly doesn't require the degree you are in o so much debt for.... You are then worse off for having gone to college because you are in the same crap job you could've gotten without a degree with all of the debt that you simply can't get rid of.... And then there's the interest. That keeps on building up driving you even DEEPER into debt. Yeah, can't escape. Can't even do anything to keep from sinking further. You have a mortgage payment but no house....
There are jobs; you just need to know where to look. Software engineering, for example, is a field in which there are more jobs than potential employees. Employees who will then be paid well enough to easily pay off their student loans. The problem isn't so much that there are no jobs; it's that people are still going for so many degrees which, from an economic perspective, are worthless.

That said, the initial costs, at least, should be lower. In my particular case, I'm going for a career in which the entry wages are something around $45-50k/y (with a median salary of $85k) according to the bureau of labor statistics. I will be coming out with about $50k in student loans, which due to my being a Scrooge Mc Duck, will likely be paid off in less than 5 years, assuming I don't go to grad school. The up-front costs not covered by loans or scholarships are about 12-15k/y; this is the biggest problem, as it requires spending at least 30k to get enough from the program to begin getting well paid internships, at which point the internships cancel out most of the up-front costs. In this case, even simply adding in more student loans to cover the up-front costs would be an improvement.

The other issue I've heard, although RIT really doesn't have the problem due to its mandatory 3 quarters of co-op to even get a BS degree in most fields, is a lack of universities and colleges helping their graduates actually get jobs after graduation. From what I've heard, many places simply don't give a crap if you find a job or not; this is why the career services department should be one of the most important considerations when choosing which to go to.
Logged

Truean

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ok.... [sigh] It froze over....
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #564 on: June 16, 2011, 03:36:44 pm »

Yeah, they weren't worthless degrees yesterday, why are they today? We're not talking about basketweaving....

Furthermore, you know we can't all be software engineers and even if we could you're wrong.... That is being outsourced to India and has been for years.... I can show you with relative ease numerous software engineers who got outsourced.
Logged
The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Aqizzar

  • Bay Watcher
  • There is no 'U'.
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #565 on: June 16, 2011, 03:39:06 pm »

There are jobs; you just need to know where to look. Software engineering, for example, is a field in which there are more jobs than potential employees. Employees who will then be paid well enough to easily pay off their student loans. The problem isn't so much that there are no jobs; it's that people are still going for so many degrees which, from an economic perspective, are worthless.

I'm very glad that you didn't just stop at "there are jobs" and explained the economic side of it, but it's still not true.  According to the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, there's about four or five officially unemployed people in America for every reported open job, and remember that the Unemployment Rate doesn't include people who are underemployed with a less-that-living-wage, or have simply given up looking for work and are no longer counted in the labor pool.  If every single person actually looking for work was qualified for every single job available, the Unemployment Rate would still be like 7%.  That's the problem.
Logged
And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

SalmonGod

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nyarrr
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #566 on: June 16, 2011, 04:06:30 pm »

There are jobs; you just need to know where to look. Software engineering, for example, is a field in which there are more jobs than potential employees. Employees who will then be paid well enough to easily pay off their student loans. The problem isn't so much that there are no jobs; it's that people are still going for so many degrees which, from an economic perspective, are worthless.

Agree to an extent.

1.  If everyone took heed to this perspective, it would quickly invalidate itself.  Too many people recognize a job market rich with opportunities, and that job market is quickly oversaturated and filled with disappointed people.  It's sort of a gold rush scenario.  Hell, it could already be happening.  If you recognize that there's plenty of opportunity in an area now, chances are there are enough people in line with your thinking who will all be graduating in roughly the same span of a few years to ruin it.

2.  Most job markets with opportunity are in either highly technical or soul-sucking areas that not everyone has the talent or the stomach for.  I started school as a computer science major, and learned I just didn't have the talent for it that I thought I would.  I discovered that I am a highly intuitive thinker, not a technical one.  I understood the principles and all the broader issues of the field, but the crunchy shit absolutely killed me.  I could force my way through it, but it was hell and unrealistic to think that I would be able to compete professionally in the field.  I found that I was a perfect match for digital arts, which is an extremely oversaturated field.
Logged
In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Angle

  • Bay Watcher
  • 39 Indigo Spear Questions the Poor
    • View Profile
    • Agora Forum Demo!
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #567 on: June 16, 2011, 04:26:07 pm »

Bleh. This is why I think that capitalism is unsustainable - eventually theres no one left to screw over, and everything collapses.

Now if only I knew what to do about it...
Logged

Agora: open-source platform to facilitate complicated discussions between large numbers of people. Now with test site!

The Temple of the Elements: Quirky Dungeon Crawler

The Doctor

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #568 on: June 16, 2011, 04:29:05 pm »

Create robot slaves to screw over?
Logged

Fenrir

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Monstrous Wolf
    • View Profile
Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #569 on: June 16, 2011, 04:29:40 pm »

Bleh. This is why I think that capitalism is unsustainable - eventually theres no one left to screw over everyone thinks that they need someone else to give them work to do, and everything collapses.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 36 37 [38] 39 40 ... 852