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[Askot Bokbondeler]

lies! at 18 a fetus is already capable of responsible thought and can be described as fully sentient, what you are defending, sir, is murder, pure and simple

Also, tax breaks for buying yachts.  I am way too exhausted to add to this.

Is this a fucking joke?  Did I somehow get transported into a parody dimension?

it is ridiculous, yes, but i get the reasoning behind that. it's either lower the taxes, or lose the tax completely to the competition. the flaw is in the system, not the bill itself

[Realmfighter]

I'll just put one here in a drunk state and know I'll regret it later:

Abortions should be legal until the foetus is fully grown.

That's around 21 years. 

There was a Philosopher I saw on Wikipedia who held the Belief That Abortion was okay until the Foetus was able to truly feel pain, Or something to that Extent, by Extension meant that Infanticide Before 3 months was too.

I laughed Until I realized I agreed.

[The Doctor]

Realmfighter, are you Okay? You seem to Have developed a Strange tic, but I can't Put my finger on It.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

hum, this is completely random but now that i noticed i can't get it off my head... why the random capitalizations?

There was a Philosopher I saw on Wikipedia who held the Belief That Abortion was okay until the Foetus was able to truly feel pain, Or something to that Extent, by Extension meant that Infanticide Before 3 months was too.

I laughed Until I realized I agreed.

ninjaed

[Realmfighter]

I like the shift key.

I'll try to be better, but my pinky keeps trying to reach over, as if I can't even control it anymore....

*Pinky proceeds to strangle Realmfighter*

IT IS OKAY CITIZENS. GO BACK TO YOUR HOMES. THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

nothing wrong with it, i was just looking for a pattern or hidden message

[Truean]

Doctors don't charge $200/hr, not even anesthesiologists. Anesthesiologists have more training, financial overhead and far more exposure to risk then lawyers do.  Bully to you for moving the curve, but it's still an absurdly expensive starting point.

Um, yes, they do. They charge far more. Most people just don't pay for it all themselves so they don't get it. I was charged over $400/hour for an Anesthesiologist when I had to be put under to get all four severely impacted wisdom teeth removed (surgery cutting into and removing part of my jaw bone to get the teeth out). Furthermore, Doctors get paid for each hour they work. I don't. After expenses I MAYBE clear $30 or $40 an hour that way. You have no idea the expenses and risks involved.

As stated, I get paid for maybe 1 in 3 hours before expenses. Also there's a secretary and a law clerk to pay. My job is mind numbingly difficult. I cannot screw up; if I do, an opposing lawyer, and a judge bite my head off in public, in front of my client.... That only happens so many times until you can't really be a lawyer anymore....

$200/hour is very very reasonable especially given all the cost and difficulty of my job and training for it, which most people honestly aren't capable of understanding, much less doing. They couldn't pass the bar exam if their life literally depended on it. Tell you what, work and study for 18 hours/day for 8 years after high school at unpaid "experience" jobs, while paying/studying for law school, and then tell me you'd do that job for peanuts.... I earn every cent I will bill and I will collect every cent. My boss has been stiffed so many times I have lost count even and especially when he wins the case. (I didn't get arrested or break the law, the client did).

Bottom line:
Wow, I just posted a way to make legal feels entirely affordable for people and that I'm charging far less and I'm still made out to be a crook, just the lesser of the crooks....My way would cost less than the cable bill ($25/month). If people don't want to pay for it this way then it's on a per job basis and that's their choice. If people are so damn cheap they won't pay $25/month for justice, then they deserve what they get....

Everybody hates lawyers but where do you run to and behind who do you hide when it all goes sideways. They all love me then....

This country either wakes up and figures out that things cost money or it will continue to go under. If everyone keeps buying cheap 3rd world country made shit, destroying jobs, and wondering why no one is employed or making any money, we're screwed.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to stay up all night studying, again....

[Bauglir]

I believe I see the problem. $200 dollars an hour seems a reasonable wage to earn for the kind of work you do. Most people don't think $200 an hour is a reasonable price to pay for the service you provide. The monthly rate seems far more reasonable, except that (like health insurance, to some), it will often be seen as a "Well, I can afford not to pay it, I mean what are the odds I'll have to deal with a lawsuit this month?" expense. And you can't afford on your current resources to try to force a new business model into the market, because it would bankrupt you before it became widespread enough that you could absorb the losses. If you had the resources, it wouldn't be worth the risk to upset the business model that got you that far.

I'd ask how plausible attempting to enforce a year-long (or something) contract with no cancellation possibility (or, at least, the cancellation penalty being the remainder of the year's premiums) would be, but I'm willing to bet you've already examined the possibility and rejected it for reasons that haven't yet occurred to me.

EDIT: Oh, I suppose I did just realize that a sort of contract like that would come off as "typical lawyer greed" or somesuch rot and make people reject it automatically despite it allowing them to save hundreds of dollars if they actually need you to do something for them.

[Criptfeind]

I dunno for sure, I would have to look at my fiances, but I think I would pay that for lawyer insurance.

Of course, I am not the best test sample for looking for a market, cause I am heavily paranoid and love the thought of insurance on everything.

[Truean]

I believe I see the problem. $200 dollars an hour seems a reasonable wage to earn for the kind of work you do. Most people don't think $200 an hour is a reasonable price to pay for the service you provide. The monthly rate seems far more reasonable, except that (like health insurance, to some), it will often be seen as a "Well, I can afford not to pay it, I mean what are the odds I'll have to deal with a lawsuit this month?" expense. And you can't afford on your current resources to try to force a new business model into the market, because it would bankrupt you before it became widespread enough that you could absorb the losses. If you had the resources, it wouldn't be worth the risk to upset the business model that got you that far.

I'd ask how plausible attempting to enforce a year-long (or something) contract with no cancellation possibility (or, at least, the cancellation penalty being the remainder of the year's premiums) would be, but I'm willing to bet you've already examined the possibility and rejected it for reasons that haven't yet occurred to me.

EDIT: Oh, I suppose I did just realize that a sort of contract like that would come off as "typical lawyer greed" or somesuch rot and make people reject it automatically despite it allowing them to save hundreds of dollars if they actually need you to do something for them.

Pretty much. You're more or less spot on and your edit even moreso, but I'm actually also worried about some other problems with people who would buy the service and abuse it.

Some people would happily buy the one year insurance, knowing they'd probably get into a lawsuit in the near future (I"m going to declare bankruptcy, someone is going to sue me, so and so owes me money I want collected,etc).

One year at $25/month * 12 = $300/year.

They'd pay the $300 for one year and then drop the service once the suit was over, getting out of their legal worries for what other lawyers charge for a single hour.... Because now that they've had that one lawsuit what are the odds of getting in another one.... *headdesk*

The flaw is that like any insurance pool, it requires some people to not collect on the policy and have a sustained stream of premium payments coming in (if EVERYONE gets sick at the same time, the insurance company goes bankrupt. You know, like AIG did when selling Mortgage Insurance "Credit Default Swaps" and a mere 10% of mortgages defaulted...).

In short it might not work, because people would see it, immediately abuse it by dumping their legal problems off on me for $300 or if it took two years to deal with $600 and I'd be hosed.

I would actually love to be affordable.... lol. If I had $2.38/ year from Every American in tax money properly allocated I could make sure everyone who deserved a lawyer had one. (Because it's not real, let's say the money was properly allocated by me and I'd go to jail immediately if even a penny was out of place).

I dunno for sure, I would have to look at my fiances, but I think I would pay that for lawyer insurance.

Of course, I am not the best test sample for looking for a market, cause I am heavily paranoid and love the thought of insurance on everything.

I appreciate the thought that you would consider it.

[Aqizzar]

News stuff for the thread: After it was placed on hold and then struck down in circuit court, the Wisconsin union legislation will soon be in the state's supreme court, but the Senate leadership isn't going to wait for them to rule on it before trying again.  This time, the legislation will be in the state budget again (since a budget still hasn't been passed), so they can use an "emergency session" and attendant measures to vote (and pass) the bill with as small a quorum as possible, before the recall elections get rolling.  The new budget is more of the same-ol-same-ol by the way, including requiring cities to hire road-work contractors instead of using municipal crews, rescinding federal funds to universities, rolling some of the nation's most "progressive" bail bond laws back to the 20th century, and more tax breaks for businesses because the state isn't losing money fast enough to justify more emergency legislation.


I don't want to clog up Vector's thread, but this is pretty interesting stuff I for one would like to hear more about.  I will say that offering litigation-insurance or whatever it would be called does not inspire confidence in me, because I think all insurance is inherently a scam, but that's just my problem.  I guess my question Truean, would be if I get your insurance for $25 a month, and then like three months in need your services, what is your plan to collect on that?  Because paying off normal rates at $25 a month would be a damn long time.

In short it might not work, because people would see it, immediately abuse it by dumping their legal problems off on me for $300 or if it took two years to deal with $600 and I'd be hosed.

I would actually love to be affordable.... lol

Okay, you more or less answered that while I was typing.  Well, don't take this the wrong way, but out of that $200, how much do expect to take home in your pocket at the end of the day, sans all expenses?  Honest question, I need some perspective there.

[Truean]

Okay, you more or less answered that while I was typing.  Well, don't take this the wrong way, but out of that $200, how much do expect to take home in your pocket at the end of the day, sans all expenses?  Honest question, I need some perspective there.

Meh, my records are on my external hard drive, which is at work currently. Screw it, I'm not afraid to do it from scratch. It's a tad rougher than I like but o well.

Disclaimer

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Financial Figure work:
The organizational structure would be as followed, scaled by area for cost of living. All figures are for the Northern Federal District of Ohio and associated Jurisdictions. Regional adjustments would be required for variances in cost across geography.

The Following is theoretical only and is not an offer of services

Direct Answer to question:

An attorney under this setup would make $80,000/year. (No health/dental/retirement benefits)
The CPA would make $60,000/year.
Legal Secretaries/ Law Clerks would make $35,000/year (I'd actually pay mine)

Inflow:

$25/Month
600 Subscribers/Attorney Staff Person x 10 = 6000 total subscribers in organization network

$25 *12 months * 6000 subscribers = $1,800,000 yearly organizational operations budget
Divided by 10 would mean each Attorney would bring in Gross $180,000 per year.

Outflow per attorney in the firm:
The $180,000/ year would be divided as follows:
$80,000/year to the attorney.
$10,000 would go towards attorney malpractice insurance
$40,000 would go towards office operation expenses
$30,000 would go towards staff salaries and payroll taxation issues
$10,000 would go towards policy risk management (paying lawyers outside the firm to take conflicts of interest between policyholders or husband and wife in divorce actions.
$10,000 on legal research (Lexis Nexis or Westlaw subscription)

Outflow total:
All told the firm would spend
$800,000 on attorney wages for 10 lawyers.
$300,000 on staff wages
$100,000 on malpractice insurance (legally required)
$400,000 on office and operations expenses
$100,000 on associated risk management
$100,000 on Legal Research Lexis Nexis Subscription
For a total of $1,800,000 total expenditures/ year.

Theory and application:

The risk would spread so one lawyer would be responsible for 600 policy holders (an entire family). During downtime [like there would be any] the attorney would be free to research the law and be prepared to shove it up the opposition's rear end in advance as much as possible. I could finally write the legal primer on criminal defense in the Jurisdiction I've wanted to, which would in turn make me even more prepared.

Furthermore, if the bank forecloses on you, they have 12 lawyers on salaries they don't even notice paying. You can barely afford one.... Think that's fair? 12 on 1 odds? This evens the playing field.

The CPA would do everyone's taxes. And the staff would keep every record for you, and take care of your book keeping. In the event you were sued, you'd have 10 lawyers who could be able to focus on their jobs instead of getting paid.

NOTE: This is not an offer for services but only a theoretical exercise.

[Aqizzar]

That's extremely helpful actually, although I was more curious about what you were expecting to make at your actual business, the $200 an hour one, rather than the theoretical insurance-based one.  I'm also still wondering about collecting from clients, when they haven't paid as much to you in monthly fees as whatever job they bring to you is.

But I suppose my requisite crooks line would be that you could reduce your operating costs by about 10-15% in that model by paying yourself (and your fellow lawyers) $60k a year instead of $80k; which would still put you a bit above the average combined household income, although that says nothing about cost of living in your own area.  The no health/dental/retirement part seems like that would be entirely your own choice if you were running the business; I wouldn't think there's anything about the business that precludes you from getting business-level health care plans and such, which would be collectively cheaper than just paying everybody more to cover for it.

[alway]

The problem I do see with such an insurance plan would be if 2 clients were suing one another. I can't see "Sorry dude, I can't represent you in this case because I'm representing the person suing you' going over well with those who have paid their money each month.

[Truean]

That's extremely helpful actually, although I was more curious about what you were expecting to make at your actual business, the $200 an hour one, rather than the theoretical insurance-based one.

I'd go for $40 or $50 an hour, which frankly is less than the labor costs a plumber charges.

But I suppose my requisite crooks line would be that you could reduce your operating costs by about 10-15% in that model by paying yourself (and your fellow lawyers) $60k a year instead of $80k; which would still put you a bit above the average combined household income, although that says nothing about cost of living in your own area.  The no health/dental/retirement part seems like that would be entirely your own choice if you were running the business; I wouldn't think there's anything about the business that precludes you from getting business-level health care plans and such, which would be collectively cheaper than just paying everybody more to cover for it.

I'm expecting myself and my attorneys to work not 40 but 60 hour weeks.

I'm not using this
40 hours x 52 weeks = 2080 hours a year
80,000/2080= $38.46/hour

I'm using this:
60 hours x 52 weeks = 3120 hours a year
$80,000/3120 = $25.64/hour

I think $25.64/hour is more than reasonable for a lawyer's wage. (Again, the plumber charges more for labor and that DOESN'T include parts). People forget that lawyers do not work 40 hour weeks; we work 60 minimum.

If I ask lawyers to work for less than $25.64/hour.... Well, I'll be killed with a stapler by people who defend murder charges for a living.... I'm just not going down like that man....

(Hell if I ask lawyers to work for $38.46/hour they'll murder me. If I ask them to work for $25.64/hour they'll make sure it's a slow painful death.)

The problem I do see with such an insurance plan would be if 2 clients were suing one another. I can't see "Sorry dude, I can't represent you in this case because I'm representing the person suing you' going over well with those who have paid their money each month.

Got that covered and budgeted for already,

"$100,000 on associated risk management "

Translation, I pay another lawyer to take your case and resolve the conflict at no additional cost to you. This would work especially well if there were two firms that did this and they could refer conflicting client problems to each other.

Yes, you wouldn't get "me" or one of my lawyers handling your case, but you would get a lawyer I trust to do so from another firm. It wouldn't cost you extra, because the model already budgets for it. Additionally, there are only 6000 people the firm serves. That leaves a relatively small pool of people to conflict with.