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[Vector]

A complex understanding of something?  Sure.  I'm a math major and I think in pictures.  There are many, many things that I can conceive of which I can't express in words.

Like the precise tenor of my anger, which is reacting to the fact that you seem to think random people have the right to demand my sexuality at a moment's notice and get a full reply.  So that they can choose to get away from me, sinful creature who has never kissed a woman.

I don't know about other people.  I don't feel like I was given a choice.  I spent my childhood reading my Bible and my Torah (and my Greek Myths, for those who care), and I went to church--Lutheran, Catholic, Unitarian.  I told other people to respect the Commandments (none of which include "thou shalt not be gay;" unfortunately, the commandment "thou shalt not kill" does not seem to apply to gay people in many cases).  I never rebelled against God; on the contrary, I never believed at all.  No one told me I shouldn't believe in God, or that I should believe.  It was not some great triumphing of Science.  It was just a little shrug of the shoulders, and a slow turning away from the organized religion I'd clung to for a while.  It seemed like there was something more interesting and important to think about.  I already followed all of the important rules, and many more, besides.

And when it turned out that I was interested in men and women in equal measure (i.e. not very much), I dutifully did my best to squash my "deviant" attraction within myself--because it was inconvenient.  After all, my parents do not believe in equal rights.  But people would still ask questions sometimes, or I would catch myself staring, or I would do something I regretted--try to hold someone's hand, or take their arm.  I'd never want to, of course.  Everyone knows being gay is bad.  I carefully made myself unattractive to members of both sexes, not wanting to endure anyone's advances.  Terrified of being touched by anyone.

You see, GGamer, your premise of rebellion is flawed.  One of the things that I can put into words is my love of rules and order, and structure.  That is what I have built my life on.  It is one of the only things that interests me, an obsession for the prismatic and pure.  And, indeed, in order to not rebel, in order to keep from rocking the boat and disturbing the "god" of society, I endured physical, emotional, and sexual abuse for ten long years--quietly, uncomplaining.  Because that was my duty.

And so, when I find little Leviticus quotes lying around, I swallow my anger.  When I see a particularly beautiful woman walk by, I try to avert my eyes.  I wear sensible shoes and my hair pulled back straight so that no one will be foolish enough to become involved with me--so that I will never have to tell them about my deviancy or diagnoses of mental illness (depression with moodswings and anxiety, plus another thing, in case you were wondering).  Indeed, I have never worn makeup, and forsworn jewelry entirely... usually, I am clothed in heavy cloth from throat to wrist, waist to ankle.  Two or three layers even on sunny days.  Dun or dark colors.  Big, round glasses to hide my eyes.  I don't talk to people much and often hide when I hear footsteps.

I get excited about potential dates, but then I get scared because I don't want to be forced to confess.  I try so hard to be good.

Do you understand what kind of existence this is?

[Cthulhu]

ggamer while I may disagree with almost all of your opinions I would just like to say it takes some fortitude to stay under fire for so long, and while you're reacting without finesse or kindness to it all, the fact that you haven't ended yourself with catastrophic explosion yet is pretty impressive.

The only reason he hasn't catastrophically exploded is because he's still in the process of catastrophically exploding.

[freeformschooler]

Vector, sometimes when I read posts that you make when someone gets you all indignant like they're going to always do, I feel like I'm reading a speech given at the climax of a good novel. And then whoever it is you're arguing with just picks it apart and goes on with their own yadda yadda.

You're like Vriska, one of the most loved and yet criticized people in the group you belong to. I can't say I agree with a lot of your opinions, either (except a good portion of the ones this thread is about, of course), but when it comes down to it I agree with the way you present them, and if I were in your place continuing a debate or argument like this would make me really want to just say "my desire to give someone, anyone, a fist to the face is building with every moment".

ggamer while I may disagree with almost all of your opinions I would just like to say it takes some fortitude to stay under fire for so long, and while you're reacting without finesse or kindness to it all, the fact that you haven't ended yourself with catastrophic explosion yet is pretty impressive.

The only reason he hasn't catastrophically exploded is because he's still in the process of catastrophically exploding.

I don't think he knows this yet. I'm just cheering him on, I wanna see how long he'll last.

[alway]

ggamer while I may disagree with almost all of your opinions I would just like to say it takes some fortitude to stay under fire for so long, and while you're reacting without finesse or kindness to it all, the fact that you haven't ended yourself with catastrophic explosion yet is pretty impressive.

The only reason he hasn't catastrophically exploded is because he's still in the process of catastrophically exploding.

Yep, judging by the profanity count in his posts, he's been catastrophically exploding since the first he made. Good thing his particular interpretation of the perfectly clear 'don't use profanity in my name' theme of Christianity decides to not use that part, or he might be in for some serious repentin' tomorrow morning.

@ggamer: you may not be a biblical scholar or anything, so let me make this perfectly clear: What you are doing is the absolute opposite of what you are mandated to. You show a lack of both love and respect for everyone around you. Even the advocated theocratic policies you advocate go against the very god you claim to worship. Do you think, even for one second, that legislating homosexuality as being illegal will stop it? NO. As your religious texts state: even so much as looking at and lusting over someone else is "committing sin in the heart." You could chemically sterilize every single person on the planet and STILL not "fix" the problem presented by your religious texts. However, I can tell you what it would and what it already IS doing: turning more and more followers and potential members of your religion away with your cockamamie schemes at theocratic rule. If you want to follow your religious text? FINE. If you want yourself and your religion to follow your religious text? FINE. But the first moment you try to impose your rule over a single person outside of your religion, you are expressing your desire to control others, not a desire to win others over for your god.

[Knight of Fools]

The big problem is that people tend to dehumanize anything that they see as abnormal or deviant.  They focus too much on actions and don't realize there's a person behind those actions.  They see someone as different, and immediately don't know what they're dealing with.  It's a problem on all sides of the spectrum, and it's one that breeds misunderstanding, because people are afraid of knowing more about something they don't understand.  Acknowledging that all those who take part in bi- or homosexual activities actually have normal problems, live their lives, work, and are human means that they have to face their own preconceived notions that Good and Evil isn't like what it is in the movies.

As for what's good or evil, I'm not going to tell anyone how to live.  I'm hardly perfect enough to go around saying, "You're 100% wrong and must mend your ways!!"  I don't think anyone is.  I'll give my opinion as politely as possible, sure - But directly try to force someone into a certain attitude or opinion?  Never.


I just hope you guys don't think that every Christian's going to have the same reaction as GGamer's.  I've known a lot of people from different Christian faiths, but the portion that ignore the whole "love their neighbor as thyself" of the Bible is rather small.  The majority likely disapprove, but they're not the kind to swear at and hate those that swing a little different to them.

Reaching a relationship of understanding requires effort on both sides, I think.  We're allowed to have differing opinions and beliefs, but that doesn't mean we automatically can't get along together.

[freeformschooler]

I just hope you guys don't think that every Christian's going to have the same reaction as GGamer's.  I've known a lot of people from different Christian faiths, but the portion that ignore the whole "love their neighbor as thyself" of the Bible is rather small.  The majority likely disapprove, but they're not the kind to swear at and hate those that swing a little different to them.

I don't think anyone's going to think that. ggamer is interesting to me because I grew up around people with almost identical beliefs. I just sort of moved away from that because the church I went to (which consisted a large group of people with extremely similar beliefs and worldviews) started literally demonizing me for my disability that was prominent when I was younger, and my parents didn't really like the sound of what these people were saying. I don't personally have that many hard feelings against people like that but I am very interested in it. I just can't get inside their heads; it's too foreign for me.

[ggamer]

YELLING, telling people to fuck their mothers, and in general being an obnoxious dick, are not very Christian ways to behave, and definitely not how you convert people.  Non-Christians look at people like you and are reaffirmed that they're in the right because if Christians act the way you act, who the hell wants to be one?

You read my first post on this topic, didn't you.

Poe's law. If I was being serious, I probably would have worded it a bit better than I did.

1- I'm not saying that gay people hate god. I am saying that it is built into our nature to rebel against god. That counts for all forms of sexual deviancy, not just homosexuality.

2- And yet he still forgives.

1- So, Homosexuality, and all Sexual Deviance is natural? It is in our Nature, after all.

2- People Tend not to, Exempting Forgive as a term for Violence.

1- Yes, but do not construe that the way I think you are going to.

2- This... was worded rather strangely.

Spoiler: for size (click to show/hide)

A complex understanding of something?  Sure.  I'm a math major and I think in pictures.  There are many, many things that I can conceive of which I can't express in words.

Like the precise tenor of my anger, which is reacting to the fact that you seem to think random people have the right to demand my sexuality at a moment's notice and get a full reply.  So that they can choose to get away from me, sinful creature who has never kissed a woman.

I don't know about other people.  I don't feel like I was given a choice.  I spent my childhood reading my Bible and my Torah (and my Greek Myths, for those who care), and I went to church--Lutheran, Catholic, Unitarian.  I told other people to respect the Commandments (none of which include "thou shalt not be gay;" unfortunately, the commandment "thou shalt not kill" does not seem to apply to gay people in many cases).  I never rebelled against God; on the contrary, I never believed at all.  No one told me I shouldn't believe in God, or that I should believe.  It was not some great triumphing of Science.  It was just a little shrug of the shoulders, and a slow turning away from the organized religion I'd clung to for a while.  It seemed like there was something more interesting and important to think about.  I already followed all of the important rules, and many more, besides.

And when it turned out that I was interested in men and women in equal measure (i.e. not very much), I dutifully did my best to squash my "deviant" attraction within myself--because it was inconvenient.  After all, my parents do not believe in equal rights.  But people would still ask questions sometimes, or I would catch myself staring, or I would do something I regretted--try to hold someone's hand, or take their arm.  I'd never want to, of course.  Everyone knows being gay is bad.  I carefully made myself unattractive to members of both sexes, not wanting to endure anyone's advances.  Terrified of being touched by anyone.

You see, GGamer, your premise of rebellion is flawed.  One of the things that I can put into words is my love of rules and order, and structure.  That is what I have built my life on.  It is one of the only things that interests me, an obsession for the prismatic and pure.  And, indeed, in order to not rebel, in order to keep from rocking the boat and disturbing the "god" of society, I endured physical, emotional, and sexual abuse for ten long years--quietly, uncomplaining.  Because that was my duty.

And so, when I find little Leviticus quotes lying around, I swallow my anger.  When I see a particularly beautiful woman walk by, I try to avert my eyes.  I wear sensible shoes and my hair pulled back straight so that no one will be foolish enough to become involved with me--so that I will never have to tell them about my deviancy or diagnoses of mental illness (depression with moodswings and anxiety, plus another thing, in case you were wondering).  Indeed, I have never worn makeup, and forsworn jewelry entirely... usually, I am clothed in heavy cloth from throat to wrist, waist to ankle.  Two or three layers even on sunny days.  Dun or dark colors.  Big, round glasses to hide my eyes.  I don't talk to people much and often hide when I hear footsteps.

I get excited about potential dates, but then I get scared because I don't want to be forced to confess.  I try so hard to be good.

Do you understand what kind of existence this is?

I need a second to think on this one.

Vector, sometimes when I read posts that you make when someone gets you all indignant like they're going to always do, I feel like I'm reading a speech given at the climax of a good novel. And then whoever it is you're arguing with just picks it apart and goes on with their own yadda yadda.

You're like Vriska, one of the most loved and yet criticized people in the group you belong to. I can't say I agree with a lot of your opinions, either (except a good portion of the ones this thread is about, of course), but when it comes down to it I agree with the way you present them, and if I were in your place continuing a debate or argument like this would make me really want to just say "my desire to give someone, anyone, a fist to the face is building with every moment".

That was the most beautiful metaphor I've ever seen.

ggamer while I may disagree with almost all of your opinions I would just like to say it takes some fortitude to stay under fire for so long, and while you're reacting without finesse or kindness to it all, the fact that you haven't ended yourself with catastrophic explosion yet is pretty impressive.

The only reason he hasn't catastrophically exploded is because he's still in the process of catastrophically exploding.

Yep, judging by the profanity count in his posts, he's been catastrophically exploding since the first he made. Good thing his particular interpretation of the perfectly clear 'don't use profanity in my name' theme of Christianity decides to not use that part, or he might be in for some serious repentin' tomorrow morning.

ggamer: you may not be a biblical scholar or anything, so let me make this perfectly clear: What you are doing is the absolute opposite of what you are mandated to. You show a lack of both love and respect for everyone around you. Even the advocated theocratic policies you advocate go against the very god you claim to worship. Do you think, even for one second, that legislating homosexuality as being illegal will stop it? NO. As your religious texts state: even so much as looking at and lusting over someone else is "committing sin in the heart." You could chemically sterilize every single person on the planet and STILL not "fix" the problem presented by your religious texts. However, I can tell you what it would and what it already IS doing: turning more and more followers and potential members of your religion away with your cockamamie schemes at theocratic rule. If you want to follow your religious text? FINE. If you want yourself and your religion to follow your religious text? FINE. But the first moment you try to impose your rule over a single person outside of your religion, you are expressing your desire to control others, not a desire to win others over for your god.

well worded. Lot's of passion. But you see, I am not out to make it illegal. I'm not very well versed in scripture, I have a proclivity towards saying fuck, I have a broken finger that doesn't work well for typing. I am in a relationship with a girl I'm not too sure about. These are all why god loves us. God doesn't hate everybody, he hates their sin. God loves me, for being a stubborn ass, god loves you, for reasonable arguing, God still loves Vector, even though she doesn't realize It.

You keep associating me with my steryotype. The worst thing I said was in the joke post in my first post. I do not think all gays will go to hell, I do not think outlawing it will make the situation better; hell, I think god loves gay people. I just said something that affected me. My personality.

I am not a perfect Christian. I make mistakes. This breaks my base.

This is the kind of thing they taught me in sunday school. I can't believe I was this stupid. How can I go around telling people my opinions, and claiming they are god's will, when I say fuck and shit every other word.

In closing; yes it is against what I am mandated to do. I really fucked up this time. But that's all irrellivant. God will forgive me, because I still have faith in him. God will forgive anybody, no matter how drastic their sin.

Can't say I made a good first impression with that first post.

I just hope you guys don't think that every Christian's going to have the same reaction as GGamer's.  I've known a lot of people from different Christian faiths, but the portion that ignore the whole "love their neighbor as thyself" of the Bible is rather small.  The majority likely disapprove, but they're not the kind to swear at and hate those that swing a little different to them.

This isn't/

I never said that. I cussed earlier, and like a sailor. And I broke my base so this is pointless.

Listen to knight. I let my outside life get into my spiritual life. I never meant to sound so arrogant, I never thought I said anything like that.

I don't think anyone's going to think that. ggamer is interesting to me because I grew up around people with almost identical beliefs. I just sort of moved away from that because the church I went to (which consisted a large group of people with extremely similar beliefs and worldviews) started literally demonizing me for my disability that was prominent when I was younger, and my parents didn't really like the sound of what these people were saying. I don't personally have that many hard feelings against people like that but I am very interested in it. I just can't get inside their heads; it's too foreign for me.

I don't... haet,,, people... forthat,,, its not right...

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Alright, now I'm confused. You invoked Poe's law and went right back to arguing. Are we being trolled by you or not?

[freeformschooler]

Well, I think that was the end of ggamer's catastrophic explosion. Let's all give a clap for vector and ggamer because this thread will go down in the history of nothing. I both earned and lost the exact same amount of respect for everybody. Including myself.

Just another day at Bay 12 Forums.

Alright, now I'm confused. You invoked Poe's law and went right back to arguing. Are we being trolled by you or not?

Also wondered this. I think it would be easier to just say "yeah, yeah I'm trolling you all". Even if you/I/whoever else in that position wasn't(weren't?)

[ggamer]

Actually, no. This is stupid.

Do you guys want to know why I cussed?

First, I was making fun of conservatives on this post.

The next time was when This guy GOt so angry that he said I was an arrogant ass, and started attacking my moral character. After that, it went down hill from there.

Several people said I said things I would never dream of saying, like that I think god hates gay people, That I think everybody is wrong except me, and that I'm generally a horrible person.

so please, be my guest. Attack my moral fiber, I'm going to do this argument the right way.

EDIT: The whole thing started because of the joke thing I put in spoilers. The argument continued from there.

[Cthulhu]

Alright, now I'm confused. You invoked Poe's law and went right back to arguing. Are we being trolled by you or not?

It was a classic whattrollswantyoutobelieve.jpg cop-out.

[Knight of Fools]

Free Form Schooler: I think some people are so willing to see and point out the flaws (Perceived or not) in others because it mitigates their own flaws.  Kind of a "I'm not so bad, see?" attitude that makes someone feel superior because they don't "suffer" from the same thing, whether it's physical or spiritual.  It's one of the reasons soap operas are so popular - Seeing how "bad" other people's lives are makes people feel better about their own.  They just don't understand the stress people go actually go through.

GGamer:  Everyone has a bad day, but we should vent it in a productive way.  You've certainly made this thread a lot more interesting. 

I'm sure a lot of the fallout and misconceptions came from your hostile way of presenting your opinions, though.  That automatically sets a lot of people into, "He must fall under the stereotype" mode (Including me).

Man, it's hard to write a well thought out post during these hot debates!  Everything I'm saying is almost a page behind!

[ggamer]

Yeah. I'm sorry for the whole flame war (Possibly not? maybe a Flame battle? flame riot?) I guess I started.

Also, I am going to answer Vector's post eventually. Possibly over PM.

[freeformschooler]

EDIT: The whole thing started because of the joke thing I put in spoilers. The argument continued from there.

I still don't understand which side of what argument you're on. When I do I guarentee I would like to debate with you at least about something. But you have been very entertaining.

Free Form Schooler: I think some people are so willing to see and point out the flaws (Perceived or not) in others because it mitigates their own flaws.  Kind of a "I'm not so bad, see?" attitude that makes someone feel superior because they don't "suffer" from the same thing, whether it's physical or spiritual.  It's one of the reasons soap operas are so popular - Seeing how "bad" other people's lives are makes people feel better about their own.  They just don't understand the stress people go actually go through.

Not sure what part you're replying to here but I heartily agree. Obviously I do this all the time too, I think it's human nature, so I say let them feel superior. No, really. If someone needs to belittle me to feel better about, say, something they did, it doesn't affect me in the long run, just at the moment.

[ggamer]

EDIT: The whole thing started because of the joke thing I put in spoilers. The argument continued from there.

I still don't understand which side of what argument you're on. When I do I guarentee I would like to debate with you at least about something. But you have been very entertaining.

It was pretty easy to Identify me. I was the evil conservative in the "Everyone vs. The Evil Conservative"

That being said, I pay way too much attention to the news to be a good conservative.