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[Knight of Fools]

I'm not Republican, actually.

Surprise!

You're just doing the "othering" that Vector mentioned without presenting any proof beyond your "insider" information.

[Angle]

The problem with contraceptives is that they don't work all the time. Pretty much any contraceptive mechanism is bound to fail, even those implants they stick in women only have a 99% success rate. Other than that, people tend to end up having unprotected sex because of a poor sex ed system. Kids are smart, don't get me wrong, it's just that sometimes being smart means not asking about those things in certain regions of the world, and so they have no idea of how things work, and what the risks are. It's pretty unfair to expect these people to know better because you do.

the failure rate for most contraceptives is from people misusing them, not them failing. Those implants have a 99.999 percent success rate. as for people lacking education, that's why I said I support planned parenthood. Education is important, and they provide that. And yes, I know that many people live in places where they just don't have access to contraceptives or information about them. I am obviously not talking about these people. My comment was aimed solely at people living in the U.S.or similarly developed countries.

edit- as for the Rethuglicans, I would call them foolish and wrong more than I would call them evil. Except for that behavior modification thing, that crosses the line.

[alway]

Those implants have a 99.999 percent success rate.

Even 99.999% effective still means thousands or tens of thousands of annual unplanned pregnancies in the US alone, simply due to the number of people in the calculation.
Sure, it probably won't happen to any given person, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

[Knight of Fools]

As long as we understand the difference between what defines a party and what defines a person doing something legitimately wrong.

Whether or not a Republican or a Democrat has some scandal (Involving money, sex, or both) has no bearing on their class.  We're not going around saying that all Democrats are crazed sex addicts based purely on "insider information" and some mistakes that people have made, and neither are we going around saying that all Republicans are greedy sons-of-guns based on the same things (Mistakes and "inside info").  Either one would be insanely presumptuous, no matter what one's class preference, because both parties have the same "human" fallacies.  Both Republicans and Democrats have sex scandals, bad money, and a bunch of other things that result from human nature, not their party affiliation.

We also need to understand that the people who go about forcing their views and ideologies on others are wrong.  I would not condone anybody forcing someone to do anything against their will in an effort to "change" them, no matter the excuse.  I wouldn't support a school making people heterosexual as I would someone trying to make others homosexual.  They're both on the same degree of wrong.

What we need to do is realize that someone who disagrees with us is not automatically an enemy.  They simply have a differing opinion, and we should respect their opinion, whether or not we see merit in it.  Refusing to see both sides of the story will make us blind.  I'm tired of the "us versus them" mentality - It gets tiring.


Sorry for the off-topic rant on "othering".

[RedKing]

And I am not a Democrat! Ha!

[Knight of Fools]

I wish there were a laughing smiley on this board. I lol'd.

But, er, back on topic, I guess.  Sorry for the derailment, Vector!

[Vector]

It's okay--I don't consider it a derailment, because at this point I trust neither Democrats nor Republicans on the face value of the elected party politics >_>  So... yeah, don't worry about it.  This thread is supposed to be a little chaotic, and all of your posts have been a pleasure to read.

[Darkmere]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ah, I should have been a bit more clear and not typing when sleep-deprived.

What I meant was, to me there's a subtle difference between pro-choice arguments and laissez-faire policy. (spelling? meh). Pro-choice is a political stance which revolves around legislating personal freedom with regards to that decision.

Between pro-life and pro-choice, I will side with pro-choice 100% of the time. However, I don't think it should even be a legislative issue, as those decisions fall outside of government purview, as it's tromping on personal beliefs of either side no matter which way the laws go. The only government involvement should be protecting people on either side of the argument from violence and harassment.

Does that make more sense?

Not to me, at least. I'm not sure what difference there is between a laissez-faire attitude in the law and requiring that a laissez-faire attitude in the law be mandatory, except that the latter accounts for the unfortunately significant number of people that don't want that attitude to exist and see legislation as a valid avenue toward making it happen. As far as I can tell, pro-choice is "There shouldn't have to be laws about this, but apparently we don't live in a world that nice."

I think Knight of Fools stated my opinion better than I did. It's a matter of the issue leading to partisanship conflict rather than looking out for the best interests of the populace at large. I see abortion issues as personal choice that lies beyond the purview of the state to dictate, and as such should  be decided on a personal basis. I understand that necessity of legislation to protect the right of self-determination exists, but I wish it weren't so. Hence, in a forced polarization on the issue, I will side with the pro-choice argument every time.

However, the issue extends beyond a "simple" debate over whether or not abortion should be legislated. There's a matter of social responsibility that's being ignored in contraception and sex education. Contraceptives are a viable option, but they carry a degree of social stigma that shouldn't exist. I think the problem should be solved through social awareness and education, instead of repression and stigma. Personal responsibility and maturity would go a long way towards solving the root cause of the issue, instead of flaring debate over the symptom and ignoring the cause.

The othering issue is perfectly illustrated in partisanship politics. Let's say I, as a voter, desire a candidate that is pro-choice, anti gun regulation, non-religious (as in, refuses to endorse or refute any particular religious affiliation in any government capacity at any level), and environmentally moderate. Who do I vote for? Partisanship ensures any non-democrat or non-republican vote is essentially wasted. What option does that leave me?

[RedKing]

In theory, a libertarian Republican would be your ideal candidate. However, party orthodoxy makes political life short, nasty and brutish for any Republican professing to be pro-choice, even when that decision is framed as one of "personal liberty". Plus, too many libertarians are very laissez-faire on environmental regulation--which, left to the good graces of the private sector, essentially equals "Favors allowing companies to make and sell Baby Seal Jerky if they choose to".

I think what this demonstrates is the core ideological paradoxes at the heart of both parties. The Republican party is supposed to be the party of limted government and personal liberty, but since the religious Right got their claws into them circa 1980, they've also made legislating morality a key component of their platform, which inherently conflicts with their stated core principles.

The Democrats are supposed to be the party of social welfare, equality and individual freedoms, but frequently attempt to do so in hamfisted or "one-size-fits-all" ways which often wind up not solving the problem at all, or only partially doing so.

Personally, my ideal platform would be one that is fiscally conservative, socially liberal and foreign policy moderate. Since no such party exists, I am and will continue to be an Independent.

[breadbocks]

When I saw this, my first thought was "Can we make this mandatory for all males at say, age 15?" 

:O

I'm just waiting for Simmura to read this. It's like Vector and the Gentleman topic a while back. It's just a dumbass thing to say.

What if I WANT kids at 18? (I don't ever want kids, but hypothetically speaking.) What if I've a girlfriend who also wants kids at 18? Suddenly, some stupid government regulation has ruined my plans. It's one thing to require a vaccination for Chicken Pox. That's a disease.
Pregnancy isn't.

[Duke 2.0]

 Make it like sex ed where parents can elect to exclude their kids from it. The option is there for parents that just don't care and are surprised that their kids had a baby, but for parents and kids who have their own plans it can be evaded.

[ggamer]

God dammit, this shit pisses me off. I'm going to spoiler my opinions so that I don't cause a ROYAL FUCKING PANIC by not being arch-liberal.

Spoiler: OPINIONS, MOTHER FUCKER (click to show/hide)

Why the FUCK do these issues have to be such a FUCKING HUGE DEAL.

For gay rights, I'm a SOUTHERN BAPTIST, and FRANKLY, I would rather not have gay men FLOUTING THEIR HOMOSEXUALITY WHEREVER THEY FUCKING GO. I don't care if you're gay, I could care WAY FUCKING LESS if you want rights, because YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO MARRY. MOVE TO FUCKING CALIFORNIA. I LET YOU FUCKERS GET MARRIED, OKAY, DON'T FUCK WITH ME.

Abortion? Oh dear fuck don't start. YES, PAST THE SECOND TRIMESTER YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CHILDREN. Frankly, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK IF YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CHILD YOU DON'T WANT. There's this amazing establishment called a FUCKING ORPHANAGE. And to the neo-conservative fucking kkk members, IF THE WOMAN JUST GOT RAPED, CUT HER SOME FUCKING SLACK BROS.

Prayer time during schools? I don't even understand why this is illegal. If a school gives students time to pray or meditate, YOU ATHEISTS DON'T HAVE TO GET DO GOD DAMMED BUTTHURT. You don't have to declare a HOLY WAR every time a Christian does something vaugely religious.

Furthermore, YES, I AM A CHRISTIAN. NO, I DON'T WANT TO FUCKING DEBATE WITH YOU OVER THE FOUNDATION OF MY BELIEFS. EVOLUTION HOLDS GROUND, THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE ALL CAME FROM FUCKING MONKEYS YOU STUPID FUCKTARDS.

Racism? WHAT THE FU- okay, no. This is just... no.

People of other ethnicities have rights. I respect all people, unless they decide to be a jerkass. Yes, teenage girl, I hate your fucking animes and want you to shut the fuck up about how damn kaiwaa sephiroth is or whatever you angsty assfucks do nowadays. Yes, black person, I mildy dislike the kind of music you listen to, but no, I'M NOT RACIST. You call EACH OTHER racial slurs, and even though YOU ARE GRANTED FULL RIGHTS, you MAKE UP discrimination so that YOU CAN FEEL SPECIAL. I have a friend who is a Pacific Islander, I sometimes call him Kawaiaan, But THAT IS PURELY JOCULAR GOOD FUCKTARD.

Furthermore, that ad about spread the word to stop the word? I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HALF THAT SHIT. I AM RATHER POSITIVE THAT WE DON'T CALL ITALIANS GREASERS, YOU ASSTARDS. WHAT THE FUCK IS A WOP. I THOUGHT I HEARD THAT WHEN I SAW FULL METAL JACKET. That movie came out in the 60's!! STOP REKINDLING RACIAL TENSIONS.

YES, ACE OF SPADES, I MAD, STOP GRIEFING MY FUCKING MEDIC TENT AND GO FUCK YOUR MOM. Okay, that's going overboard. But yeah, that's pretty much it.

In summary:

Why does every single issue have to be a ginormous fucking capital deal?

Make it like sex ed where parents can elect to exclude their kids from it. The option is there for parents that just don't care and are surprised that their kids had a baby, but for parents and kids who have their own plans it can be evaded.

agreed.

When I saw this, my first thought was "Can we make this mandatory for all males at say, age 15?" 

:O

I'm just waiting for Simmura to read this. It's like Vector and the Gentleman topic a while back. It's just a dumbass thing to say.

What if I WANT kids at 18? (I don't ever want kids, but hypothetically speaking.) What if I've a girlfriend who also wants kids at 18? Suddenly, some stupid government regulation has ruined my plans. It's one thing to require a vaccination for Chicken Pox. That's a disease.
Pregnancy isn't.

I DO NOT WANT TO CATCH PREGNANCY

[freeformschooler]

Spoiler: OPINIONS, MOTHER FUCKER (click to show/hide)

Why the FUCK do these issues have to be such a FUCKING HUGE DEAL.

For gay rights, I'm a SOUTHERN BAPTIST, and FRANKLY, I would rather not have gay men FLOUTING THEIR HOMOSEXUALITY WHEREVER THEY FUCKING GO. I don't care if you're gay, I could care WAY FUCKING LESS if you want rights, because YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO MARRY. MOVE TO FUCKING CALIFORNIA. I LET YOU FUCKERS GET MARRIED, OKAY, DON'T FUCK WITH ME.

Abortion? Oh dear fuck don't start. YES, PAST THE SECOND TRIMESTER YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CHILDREN. Frankly, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK IF YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CHILD YOU DON'T WANT. There's this amazing establishment called a FUCKING ORPHANAGE. And to the neo-conservative fucking kkk members, IF THE WOMAN JUST GOT RAPED, CUT HER SOME FUCKING SLACK BROS.

Prayer time during schools? I don't even understand why this is illegal. If a school gives students time to pray or meditate, YOU ATHEISTS DON'T HAVE TO GET DO GOD DAMMED BUTTHURT. You don't have to declare a HOLY WAR every time a Christian does something vaugely religious.

Furthermore, YES, I AM A CHRISTIAN. NO, I DON'T WANT TO FUCKING DEBATE WITH YOU OVER THE FOUNDATION OF MY BELIEFS. EVOLUTION HOLDS GROUND, THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE ALL CAME FROM FUCKING MONKEYS YOU STUPID FUCKTARDS.

Racism? WHAT THE FU- okay, no. This is just... no.

People of other ethnicities have rights. I respect all people, unless they decide to be a jerkass. Yes, teenage girl, I hate your fucking animes and want you to shut the fuck up about how damn kaiwaa sephiroth is or whatever you angsty assfucks do nowadays. Yes, black person, I mildy dislike the kind of music you listen to, but no, I'M NOT RACIST. You call EACH OTHER racial slurs, and even though YOU ARE GRANTED FULL RIGHTS, you MAKE UP discrimination so that YOU CAN FEEL SPECIAL. I have a friend who is a Pacific Islander, I sometimes call him Kawaiaan, But THAT IS PURELY JOCULAR GOOD FUCKTARD.

Furthermore, that ad about spread the word to stop the word? I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HALF THAT SHIT. I AM RATHER POSITIVE THAT WE DON'T CALL ITALIANS GREASERS, YOU ASSTARDS. WHAT THE FUCK IS A WOP. I THOUGHT I HEARD THAT WHEN I SAW FULL METAL JACKET. That movie came out in the 60's!! STOP REKINDLING RACIAL TENSIONS.

YES, ACE OF SPADES, I MAD, STOP GRIEFING MY FUCKING MEDIC TENT AND GO FUCK YOUR MOM. Okay, that's going overboard. But yeah, that's pretty much it.

In summary:

Why does every single issue have to be a ginormous fucking capital deal?

I know I know, Poe's Law, but you could have won every thread like this every if you included a footnote there saying that you were actually Stephen Colbert. I am humbled by your opinions. Do you really believe all that?

[Angle]

Even 99.999% effective still means thousands or tens of thousands of annual unplanned pregnancies in the US alone, simply due to the number of people in the calculation.
Sure, it probably won't happen to any given person, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

I should clarify - I'm not saying people should go out and have sex every which way, I'm saying that if they're going to have sex anyway and they're not trying to concieve, they should try and use protection. For some reason, there are a lot of people who don't seem to give these things a single thought, and it annoys me.

When I saw this, my first thought was "Can we make this mandatory for all males at say, age 15?" 

:O

I'm just waiting for Simmura to read this. It's like Vector and the Gentleman topic a while back. It's just a dumbass thing to say.

What if I WANT kids at 18? (I don't ever want kids, but hypothetically speaking.) What if I've a girlfriend who also wants kids at 18? Suddenly, some stupid government regulation has ruined my plans. It's one thing to require a vaccination for Chicken Pox. That's a disease.
Pregnancy isn't.

he says it lasts for two years. if administered at fifteen, it would wear out at seventeen, a good year before that would be a problem. My worries have more to do with whether or not it really works, whether or not there are side effect, and the whole "I have to get a shot where?!" issue. Also, note, even vaccines aren't mandatory. If you're monumentally stupid, you can opt out of them. It's stupid and will probably get your child killed, but it's possible. We've actually been having a lot of trouble recently from the stupid anti-vaxer convincling people to not get vaccined and then being OH SO SHOCKED when their children get sick and die.

ggamer: Oh dear.
*battens down the hatches and awaits raging inferno.*

[MetalSlimeHunt]

"Can we make this mandatory for all males at say, age 15?" 

Government Enforced Sterilization? Are you serious?

Make it like sex ed where parents can elect to exclude their kids from it. The option is there for parents that just don't care and are surprised that their kids had a baby, but for parents and kids who have their own plans it can be evaded.

After all, the actual individual's opinion doesn't matter. They're just stupid 15 year olds who don't get to object to being sterilized in an involuntary and definately painful medical procedure because they have no rights. Really.