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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 876507 times)

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #900 on: June 21, 2011, 09:24:32 pm »

What I feel is, often, beyond my control. How I act, and how I deal with what I feel, is up to me. I don't control my emotions, but I try not to let them control me either. They're just one more tool to inform my decision-making. Ideally, anyway; I admit, I'm not perfect at this. Gotta echo the above posters, both of whom seem to have viewpoints similar to my own on the value of emotions.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #901 on: June 21, 2011, 09:32:02 pm »

@Vector: That is true, anger is not useless for it has many purposes - but in the long run, I feel it's rather unconducive to a healthy, happy mindset. That is just my perspective.

Everyone should strive for balance, and as long as it works for you, I am certainly not passing any judgment. You don't have to contend that any life is not lesser, because that certainly wasn't my intent to imply. We all need to be able to love ourselves before we can love anyone else, that's actually the foundation of "metta" - universal love/compassion meditation.

The whole extending friendship and "hey we should hang out sometime", would be because I consider you an equal. Otherwise I wouldn't bother and would remain my usual arsehole, complete jackass self :P Of course.

We can have controlled anger, but I believe it is necessary to look at the origin of anger, and all of our feelings. It all stems from notions of our ego and self. Sometime it is good, sometimes it is bad. It's just something to keep in mind, because we can all be hurting others and ourselves physically and mentally and have no idea of it until we attempt to see it from another's perspective. The problem is if anger becomes a standard response, that anger eventually gets unleashed on those close to us. If we cultivate love and happiness, then it doesn't matter if it bleeds over onto others. Hell, it'll confuse your enemies who are trying to piss you off as well.

@SalmonGod: I disagree that if people are suffering horribly or feeling rage, that it is "right" for them to be feeling thus. I don't think people should have to suffer. In a perfect world, they wouldn't have to feel such in the first place. But it is not perfect. As you stated with your wife, that's what karma is about. Past actions led to her actions. Anger perpetuates anger. Breaking the cycle is difficult. We can control our actions, and we can control how we react to others' actions. We can't control others. We can all live happier by being mindful of our actions, inspire others to do the same.

But then again, I'm just a hippie.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 09:35:09 pm by KaelGotDwarves »
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Patchouli

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #902 on: June 21, 2011, 09:51:42 pm »

Wow, Kael is one worldly dude.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I like.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I also like.

I have jack to contribute. I just needed to let it be known that he knows where the money's at.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #903 on: June 21, 2011, 10:21:44 pm »

I think the point is that one needs to understand that anger can be useful for people to continue living, and it's up to them when they're ready to let go of it--or not.  It is not inherently useless.  It is not necessary for change, but if it is part of us as we fight for change, that does not make us lesser in any sense of the word.

The most I have suffered in my life was when I was trying to let go and "control" my pain.  I stopped trying and I was still sad, but I wasn't sad in the same, self-condemning way.  I could feel sad without feeling guilty for feeling sad, because I no longer allow other people to audit my emotions and tell me when they are and aren't reasonable, are and aren't causing suffering, and so on, and so forth.

We walk out into the world and have so many people telling us what to do all the time that it becomes impossible to listen to ourselves at all, or know ourselves, or act in our own best interests--flooded by all the messages of society, including the messages that there is no reason or need to feel in some way.  That any suffering we value as formative was, in fact, pointless.

My suffering made me who I am, and that is why I want to make this world better for other people, who are also suffering but are not being listened to, just as I wasn't so many times.  It had value.  It made me angry.  It gave me insight.  So long as any other person on earth is in pain, my pain is worthwhile.

I will continue to contend that this life is not any lesser, simply because it has fewer people in it and less connection.  Our capacity for feeling is not "what makes us human" any more than is any other arbitrary designation.  We simply are what we are, and I find peace in being as angry and depressed as I feel like being.  Allowing myself to feel anger when I want to feel angry, rather than rationalizing away all responsibility for another party with "compassion" and denying myself any compassionate feeling, helps me stay balanced between extremes.  Extremes of anger and submissive calm, that is.


EDIT: Kael, since when did anger imply a lack of control?  There's a difference between speaking from a position of anger and speaking angrily.

One of the reasons why I am where I am now is because I spent my childhood, as people told me to, giving far, far more than I had to give (to no reward whatsoever, because everyone always wanted me to give more) and ignoring every slight people rained upon me.

Externally, anyway.

Very yes, my entire life is, rather unfortunately, one of sadness/anger. What else do you think makes me study and work up to 18 hours a day? Fluffy, happy, contented thoughts? Yes, I have a softer side, which unfortunately rarely if ever gets to come out (yet another reason I'm sad/angry), but I"m also a very well focused punk for hire....

Anger makes me a very effective legal researcher at work, which entirely goes against the idea of not being in control when angry. I'm reading cases, trying to find some way, any way to screw over the other side, for hours, because I'm getting paid to hate them. It's nearly a requisite of my job. At some point most people pack it in if they just kinda happily go... meh.... I don't care.... O "Everybody Loves Raymond" is on tonight at 6PM on TV. No, I'll stay later and work harder when it's

This is one of my favorite examples the thought process motivating me at I work:
F*** you [homeowner's insurance company]! This old couple paid their premiums on time and in full for 42 years before their house burned down and you denied their claim without saying specifically WHY which is the very least of what you owe them. 'It's not covered by the policy,' screw you and the horse you rode in on you god forsaken puke. Either tell me WHICH PART OF THE POLICY AS APPLIED TO WHAT HAPPENED excludes them from getting paid for having their house burn down or pay. The fire marshal's report said the fire was an accidental electrical fire, which means they aren't at fault and your insurance company pays. Your employing a systematic series of delay tactics is immoral and exists solely for putting more money in your pocket in a way you have no legal right to do so and every legal responsibility under the insurance contract to avoid.... Simply, this is what they bought homeowner's insurance...for....

I swear I will become your new best friend, whether you want me or not, until and unless the firm I work for either sues or gets an answer that prevents suit. What's that you say Debbie? Mr. Jamison, your boss, the man I need to speak to but you've been stonewalling me against speaking to for 8 weeks is unavailable and you won't give me so much as a phone appointment at any time in the foreseeable future, weeks, months, years, leap years, or decades?
Nada huh?

The phone conversation when my patience finally wears out is just fantastic and I'm rather calm when I say it but pissed as hell after 2 months of stonewalling bullshit:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Summation: Anger is just a tool, we all have it; it just matters how you use and control it. If you don't control/use it well, then you're screwed. Nothing above has anything to do with me being happy. I grant you, I could be just as, if not more, effective if I were able to live the life I wanted to and be happy, but that sadly enough ain't gonna happen in the near future. So I do what I can with what I have where I am.

I am admittedly nearly obliged to have three caveats here:

1.) Don't do what I did unless you know exactly what you're doing and who you're doing it with most people can't pull that shit off, but I got paid for doing it.
2.) I would have to say I would unequivocally trade what I "am" to be truthful and happy and accepted. All three of these, with none missing. Simply, it isn't worth it.
3.) This is just an example of the great big lie I live and one of the reasons no one suspects I'm trans. I fake being confident rather well, but really I'm terrified that people won't accept me and toss me out of society.

______________________________________________________________________________________________
Note on Correspondences:

Much to my surprise and shock, I haven't gotten any hate mail at all here. In fact, I've gotten an overwhelming outpouring of support,  which shocked my cynical self to no end. If I haven't replied to your personal message or email, it is because there are simply dozens of messages and I just can't reply to them all individually. I consider this an unexpected and wonderful problem to have.... I hope you'll agree. This is the exact opposite of what happened in 2004 when I let it slip on another game message board.

I tried for a long time to think of some way to thank all of you and failed. I'm literally at a loss for words. The closest I've come is that my 1st and 2nd greatest fear (it counts twice) is being cast aside because of what I really am and your acceptance means more than I will ever fully tell you. Those few friends who know in real life kept reassuring me that there would be people out there who didn't mind and I typically just sort of politely smiled, thinking they were just trying to make me feel better by saying that.... Much like a nurse who lies when she smiles and says, "you won't feel a thing..." and then jams you with a needle.... I was especially moved that some of you said it wouldn't matter to you at all if someone you were hiring or working with was trans. I am ever so glad to have been mistaken and proven wrong. I am very much aware there will be people who won't accept me, but I will remember your kind words when they don't.

I am humbled and honored; you are better people than I imagined.

I can not thank you enough.

Yours,
Truean
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 10:58:41 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Mindmaker

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #904 on: June 22, 2011, 07:04:20 am »

Stuff.

Yeah, it's kinda scary.
Had the same thing done to me. Luckily my family didn't bother to get me new pills, once they ran out.
Been quite apathetic for some time, due to it.

But usally the trend around here is to under- rather then to overmedicate.
Not ideal either...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:07:14 am by Mindmaker »
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #905 on: June 22, 2011, 08:11:19 am »

@SalmonGod: I disagree that if people are suffering horribly or feeling rage, that it is "right" for them to be feeling thus. I don't think people should have to suffer. In a perfect world, they wouldn't have to feel such in the first place. But it is not perfect. As you stated with your wife, that's what karma is about. Past actions led to her actions. Anger perpetuates anger. Breaking the cycle is difficult. We can control our actions, and we can control how we react to others' actions. We can't control others. We can all live happier by being mindful of our actions, inspire others to do the same.


I don't think a world could be perfect if people would never be able to experience their full range of emotions. Hatred is as much a human emotion and just as important as happiness and positive feelings hold no value for those who have never experienced their counterparts. A perfect world is not a world without suffering, but one where suffering and joy are well-balanced.
As such you can't just dump someone in a hypothetical perfect world and expect things to work out, because even if the world would provide a perfect balance of all emotion-inducing circumstances for said person, then he or she may not be able or willing to actually appreciate this balance. For example, dwelling on past suffering may make someone unable to appreciate the present.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 08:14:57 am by Virex »
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #906 on: June 22, 2011, 01:19:40 pm »

I don't even know what to do with this guy:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110621/ts_yblog_thelookout/man-robs-bank-to-get-medical-care-in-jail

Really, this is the better, original and from the location, article:
http://www.gastongazette.com/articles/bank-58397-richard-hailed.html

He actually wants to go to Jail, for the express purpose of getting health care he otherwise can't. He confessed beforehand, in writing to a newspaper, the larceny (he was not charged with bank robbery) was for only $1, and he did not use and does not own a weapon....

My first thought was, bullshit, this is a publicity stunt, has to be, but it actually isn't. If anyone is faking anything it's the bank teller. This kindly old gentleman passes you a note demanding $1 and medical care. He then sits down and says, "I'll just wait for the police to arrive." Apparently, this so upset her that she had to be checked out at the hospital...which is exactly where this guy needed to go in the first place for his real medical problems.... *headdesk*

The guy actually said, if his sentence isn't long enough, he plans to tell the judge he will do it again... for the purpose of staying in jail longer.... This basically blows my mind, because all of our clients want the exact opposite. Say what you will but this is probably the one guy in the legal system being honest....

He is actually seeing a doctor now.... His plan seems to be going off exactly as he intended....
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 01:27:27 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #907 on: June 22, 2011, 01:36:34 pm »

Stuff...
The argument for humans feeling the full range of emotions and anger, joy, sorrow and that it is remotely balanced in this shitty world we live in is one that Voltaire made fun of consistently in Candide.

You're thinking of happiness as just that raw emotion of "yay! I'm feeling great!". I'm using it in the understanding of calm and steady bliss. Anger and suffering does not, in fact, need to happen. I'm not calling for a Brave New World style of society, but rather than the minds of humans can actually train themselves for happiness without hurting others. Anger ultimately spills onto others. And the sardonic thing is, we don't realise it when we're angry.

The happiness doesn't come because there is no suffering, but rather it comes because we understand the cause of suffering and see if for what it is and its sources and its effects.

@Truean: Oh yeah. Didn't know you're trans and doesn't really make a difference to me. Just wish you all the best with fitting into your niche.

We also have an entire thread dedicated to that topic already, although it does fit here.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 01:40:41 pm by KaelGotDwarves »
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RedKing

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #908 on: June 22, 2011, 01:45:12 pm »

And of course, there will be a boatload of people who get entirely the wrong message out of this incident. They'll recognize that this is a symptom of how screwed-up "the system" is, but rather than fix it so elderly people can get health care, they'll want to fix it so prisoners DON'T.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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blackmagechill

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #909 on: June 22, 2011, 01:59:59 pm »

D:
It occured to me that you've been pretty much everywhere in South-East Asia/Everywhere the hell else and I'm stuck in fucking tweakville Missouri. Great.

You're 13, he's 24.  I'm 21 and I've done none of the stuff he's done.  Get to my age and start worrying about where you've been, because right now you have lots of time to make your own future.
I actually said this because this town is a sinkhole of any success anybody would ever have. The school is under equipped, the economy is complete shit (other then the meth- that's working out GREAT), and the whole mindset is so backward you would probably try and hurt someone if you heard their opinion on ANY social issue, god forbid gay marriage. I mean, sure, he's 24 and has a job that probably requires traveling a lot ( it's pretty rare to find someone who can throw fire around like that), but this town is a monument to mediocrity. There is no local education budget, it all goes to the police station so they can catch people who are speeding instead of, oh, I don't know, selling bath tub meth to half the town? This is what hell is like.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #910 on: June 22, 2011, 02:04:34 pm »

So, this was posted in the thread about the guy who's trying to go to prison for healthcare, and it's basically the single most horrible thing I've ever read. Still not completely sure about how accurate it is, though.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #911 on: June 22, 2011, 02:09:34 pm »

Many Americans, (I am Amercian) are basically overwhelmingly mentally lazy:

"Criminals are bad:"
OK, and?
The U.S. imprisons more people than any other country in the world including Russia and China. Are the criminals somehow just worse here?
It's just easier to write people off and say fuck them rather than look into what the real problem was, which would take effort and who the crap are we kidding, "Dancing with the Stars," is on and I don't wanna think about anything, ever....

Putting minor offenders in prison doesn't fix anything; it just makes the situation worse. Some guy goes in for theft and it's like criminal graduate school or something. He goes in a petty thief and comes out a hardened criminal who doesn't give a shit.

As someone who works in the criminal justice system, most people don't get it, at all. Yet they feel entitled to comment on and shape it.
I'm coming across a disturbing trend at work of more and more people stealing FOOD.... Shit.

Meh, I've got to get back to studying.

Quote
So, this was posted in the thread about the guy who's trying to go to prison for healthcare, and it's basically the single most horrible thing I've ever read. Still not completely sure about how accurate it is, though.

It is entirely accurate and the Supreme Court cases that starts to look like it gives a shit about prisoner rape but then says "meh, unless the guards actually see it...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_v._Brennan

"We [...] hold that a prison official may be held liable under the Eighth Amendment for denying humane conditions of confinement only if he knows that inmates face a substantial risk of serious harm and disregards that risk by failing to take reasonable measures to abate it."

How stupid IS the Supreme Court? The guards can't NOT know. Let me get this straight, we shove a crap load of people, some of whom are incredibly dangerous, into small confined spaces and there isn't a risk that they will substantially risk being seriously harmed? 

People get raped in prison a lot, and yet somehow people who have never seen a prison are convinced its a four star resort.... *sigh*

Prison is so damn wonderful that everyone is always trying to escape....
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 03:54:35 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #912 on: June 22, 2011, 02:28:11 pm »

Stuff...
The argument for humans feeling the full range of emotions and anger, joy, sorrow and that it is remotely balanced in this shitty world we live in is one that Voltaire made fun of consistently in Candide.
I never said this world wasn't completely out of whack ;)[/quote]
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #913 on: June 22, 2011, 02:35:38 pm »

Heh. Yeah.

I'm just saying it doesn't have to be that way. It's just that we, as human beings, are all too willing to act on our impulse desires rather than think things through as we are now capable of doing.

We all make that mistake, so at least for me, I start by focusing on myself - what I can do to change. Simple things like "what clothes should I wear" for if I buy Levis, I perpetrate a system that artificially ceiling-caps minimum wage in Haiti to USD 24 cents an hour so we can have cheaper jeans but actually gives Haitians jobs.

All actions have long reaching and moral effects we don't normally think about, for we just act and hope for the best.

EDIT: press on that story - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20068872-503543.html
Because 61 cents an hour for our jeans isn't "economically viable".

That is our actions as a economic juggernaut catching up to us in this recession. In this era of globalisation it is true, how we have lived is not economically or morally viable.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 02:41:56 pm by KaelGotDwarves »
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Vector

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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".
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