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[kaijyuu]

Are... are you serious? "Retarded" still means "developmentally disabled". It has other associated and connected meanings as well, but it still means that.

Not in my experience, but hey that's just my experience. I quite literally have never, ever heard someone use retarded to refer to someone developmentally disabled. If you have, then sure, I guess it hasn't lost it's original meaning as much as I thought.

So let me get this straight: It's okay to use a slur with a double-meaning as the non-primary meaning, because someday it might not be associated with its current primary meaning? So would it be okay, then, to start using "jewed" to mean "ripped off", just because maybe, someday, people will forget that at some point it referred to a group of people?

It's not "someday." It's today. You don't need general usage to match your definitions to communicate with other people. Just to communicate without chance of miscommunication. (Arguing in circles here, sheesh) IE, it is irresponsible to use these words with their alternate meanings because people might think you're using it in the "offensive" way. It does not automatically mean you ARE using the word in the offensive way, though; just that it's reasonable for people to assume you are. If miscommunication is knowingly and completely averted, then yes, it's perfectly okay to use these word's alternate meanings.

Frankly I've never heard "jewed" be used in any way other than a racial insult. "Gypped," I obviously have heard without the racial overtone. Is the latter more acceptable? Well that depends how far you think the word's been separated from its original meaning. You can't convince me that anyone who says "gypped" is hateful of gypsies, because I definitely have used that word and probably used it prior to knowing what gypsies even are. You CAN say someone might misinterpret me and that them taking offense is reasonable; I'm truthfully not certain of the chances of that. Maybe it's worse in Europe than the US, because I've never really seen any racial hate directed toward gypsies here. Not in common usage at least; in the media, I remember some stuff in Sherlock Holmes, but that's from England, not here.

[G-Flex]

Not in my experience, but hey that's just my experience. I quite literally have never, ever heard someone use retarded to refer to someone developmentally disabled. If you have, then sure, I guess it hasn't lost it's original meaning as much as I thought.

People just don't often use it to refer to them directly, what with it being considered something of a slur.

Frankly I've never heard "jewed" be used in any way other than a racial insult.

It's been used in the past with basically the exact same meaning as "gypped": To be ripped off, swindled, etc. By your logic, it's totally okay for me to start using "jewed" in that sense, provided people know I mean it in that sense, regardless of the fact that said meaning comes from the stereotype of jews being stingy.

Maybe it's worse in Europe than the US, because I've never really seen any racial hate directed toward gypsies here.

There's little racial hatred toward gypsies in the US because they're not even acknowledged as real people in the US, and don't have much presence.

[scriver]

"Retarded" is still associated enough with mentally handicaped for us Swedes to adopt it over our own slurs for such people. So yeah, it certainly isn't beyond that meaning at all.

Also, kaijyuu, it seems to me that it is you who think de-originalisation happens over night, though not literary. It has taken hundreds of years for that yo happen for "idiot" and "dumb", and you'll notice nobody uses them in their original meaning anymore. I did not know about their original meaning until Vector explained them another time this was on the topic - and both words exist in Swedish too. Comparatively, I've known about "gay" and "retard" since childhood. Saying they're in the process of de-originalisation is meaningless, they've been in that process since the first time they were used. They still haven't gone much further down it than being turned into slurs, however.

[Leafsnail]

I said "in the US". Across the ocean there in the UK, there's probably more acknowledgment that "gypsies" are an actual people. In the US, they're seriously treated as damn near fictional.

I suppose that provides an ignorance defense until you learn what a gypsy is.  Afterwards, I'd agree it should surely come across as just as offensive as "Jewed" or whatever.

[SalmonGod]

I think what kaijyuu is saying is that de-originalization happens at different rates for different people.  Plenty of kids simply grow up in bigoted cultures, and adopt those terms the same way a child adopts a dialect.  I had very non-bigoted and socially responsible parents, so I was way more aware of gay people's social circumstances than most children.  So when someone said "that's totally gay" I understood what was going on.  Many another children didn't, and just grew up saying that without meaning anything by it.  I wasn't as aware of the social circumstances of mental disability, and grew up saying "that's retarded" as meaning "that's really stupid."  I knew that mentally disabled people were often labelled as "retarded", but as a child it never occurred to me that referring to something I disagreed with as "retarded" was demeaning to those people with disabilities.  So I grew up using the term habitually, and haven't yet broken that habit as an aware adult.  I can very much understand how people could grow up saying "that's gay" in much the same way.

And I think de-originalization has come pretty far for the word retarded, anyway.  Calling anyone with a mental disability "retarded" seems very much frowned upon.  We have more specific terms for every type of disability now, and people are expected to use them.

[Leafsnail]

I can very much understand how people could grow up saying "that's gay" in much the same way.

I'm not convinced.  "Gay" is still very, very much associated with homosexuals.  Often "That's so gay" can be both "What you're doing is generally bad (because it's comparable to homosexuality)" and/ or "What you're doing suggests you're homosexual, which is bad".

[scriver]

And I think de-originalization has come pretty far for the word retarded, anyway.  Calling anyone with a mental disability "retarded" seems very much frowned upon.  We have more specific terms for every type of disability now, and people are expected to use them.

One conclusion would be that it's frowned upon because the connection is still very much in people's minds.

[Levi]

I can very much understand how people could grow up saying "that's gay" in much the same way.

I'm not convinced.  "Gay" is still very, very much associated with homosexuals.  Often "That's so gay" can be both "What you're doing is generally bad (because it's comparable to homosexuality)" and/ or "What you're doing suggests you're homosexual, which is bad".

I prefer the politically correct alternatives.   

(also George is my hero)

[SalmonGod]

I can very much understand how people could grow up saying "that's gay" in much the same way.

I'm not convinced.  "Gay" is still very, very much associated with homosexuals.  Often "That's so gay" can be both "What you're doing is generally bad (because it's comparable to homosexuality)" and/ or "What you're doing suggests you're homosexual, which is bad".

Yeah, but those are sociological word origins, which most people are not very aware of until late teens/early adulthood.

I think the reality is something more like this.

Kids A, B, C, D, E, F, and G all have bigoted parents who call things they don't like "gay" with genuine malicious intent.

Kids A, B, and C are also bigoted and remain so through adulthood.  They don't understand the full impact of the term until they're older, but love the term for it all the more when they do.

Kids D and E get over the influence of their homophobic parents as adults, but have trouble dropping use of the term out of 20 years of habit.

Kids F and G are never homophobic at all.  Their parents are, but not outspokenly so.  As children, they don't fully understand the hellish social circumstances that gay people have to live with, so they don't understand the harm in using the term.  They mostly ignore the situation as children, because it seems so distant to them.  They probably know some gay people, but don't even realize it because they're all still hiding or struggling with their sexuality.  They'll grow more concerned as adults, but still have trouble shaking the term from their vocabulary, due to 20 years of habit.

Kids H and J don't even have bigoted parents.  They're just at the same level of social awareness as Kids F and G, and use the term because all the other kids, who got it from their parents, use it.  They'll also grow more concerned as adults, but have trouble kicking the habit.

Kid K is the only one who has been educated on the issues by his parents and never develops the habit.

I was Kid K in regards to "gay", but I was Kid H/J in regards to "retarded".

[Truean]

Why yes Alabama, you are anti foreign companies when you pass a backwards immigration law like you did.

"Suddenly the reality of what the state has done hit people in the face," said Richard Cohen, president of the Southern Poverty Law Center.
______________________________________________________________________
As for the gay thing, I dunno. It really did effect me growing up. What you are directly means stupid. Worse, some people might not even realize they're saying it. Some do....

_____________________________________________________________________
http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/remains-of-274-soldiers-dumped-in-virginia-landfill-27530281.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Fremains-of-274-soldiers-dumped-in-virginia-landfill-27530281.html

And its even Fox News.... Used to be pet cemetery, now it's just a landfill for our troops.... It's about time to start paying taxes for them instead of just slapping a bumper sticker on the SUV.... I guess we really were throwing them away for an unjust war.... [sigh] Outrageous....

I really hope the relatives can sue the military for IIED (Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress).

[SalmonGod]

Yeah... I'm definitely not trying to diminish the impact that language has in situations like this... I'm just saying that it's not necessarily justified to accuse everyone who uses a word as doing so with malice or intentional irresponsibility.

[Truean]

Yeah... I'm definitely not trying to diminish the impact that language has in situations like this... I'm just saying that it's not necessarily justified to accuse everyone who uses a word as doing so with malice or intentional irresponsibility.

True, unfortunately what ends up happening is it creates a place for bigots to hide. Cause, you really can't tell the ones who don't mean it and the ones that do....

[kaijyuu]

Yeah I pretty much agree with what SalomnGod said I was saying, with the caveat that I think people can be aware of both meanings of a word and be able to use the "non-offensive" version... just that they run the risk of people thinking they ARE using the offensive version.

Worse, some people might not even realize they're saying it. Some do....

Here's my thoughts on that:

The ones that don't realize anything, deserve no ire.
The ones that do but don't intend any insult should probably be more responsible with their word choice but otherwise deserve no ire.
The ones that intend insult, burn in righteous fire

[SalmonGod]

Yeah... I'm definitely not trying to diminish the impact that language has in situations like this... I'm just saying that it's not necessarily justified to accuse everyone who uses a word as doing so with malice or intentional irresponsibility.

True, unfortunately what ends up happening is it creates a place for bigots to hide. Cause, you really can't tell the ones who don't mean it and the ones that do....

Yeah, I can see this... on the other hand, we all know what witch hunts are like.

People are going to get hurt.  The best we can do is spread awareness and encourage responsibility.  In the meantime, statements like this only put people on the defensive.

Going around and using 'gay' as a pejorative, associating gayness with 'bad', in an era where homosexuals are still persecuted and in many ways second-class citizens, is at best privileged selfishness and at worst serves to continue systematic prejudice in the English language itself.

People respond better to "Hey you should really put some thought into that term you're using.  I happen to know it's very hurtful to many people.  Real gay kids grow up hearing this constantly and have major self-esteem issues." than they do to "You're a horrible person for saying that and should be ashamed."  Decent people will respond to the former.  The latter statement is reserved for people who have been identified has having real malicious intent.

[shadenight123]

i usually call my brother gay on a regular basis, it's not a way to insult him, it's a habit.
it's no more different than calling him "brother".
just, first off i did the classical school, and for gay, i always mean the "gaio" meaning, (cheerful)
secondly, it's because he has this sort of prank way of saying hello to some of his best friends (who do the same with him) where he runs up to them and hugs them faking kisses and the likes. (to make the girlfriends "jealous")
so it stuck.
and i'm pro gay marriage and all.
it's just, a habit.