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[Christes]

It's actually rather depressing how technology often plays into societal problems.  We often tout technology as this great solution to societal problems, when really the problems come from our biological nature, and are only magnified by technology we develop.

[Phmcw]

I do not see why, as being male and a capacity for strength are biologically linked. You may as well wish that gills were not associated with fish.

While swapping genders at will may well be desirable for some, such measures do not solve the problem. The problem lies with people that are too illogical in thought to recognize the capacity of the individual in question. If someone supposes that a woman is less valuable than a man, but he does so without any logical reason to suppose the same or, as is more likely, he supposes so without any thought at all, simply changing the woman into a man does not correct his erroneous thought, and he shall likely find something else to distort with his lack of reason. All that was done was to alter the world to avoid his ignorance. I do not wish to live in a world where bodies are altered merely to avoid the slings and arrows of an idiot's tongue.

Women would be compelled to become men simply to avoid persecution, even if they did want to be women.

What I was discussing is people who are uncomfortable withing the accepted boundaries of their gender, not misogyny in general.

As for women being weaker (at lifting) , it's true on average, and amplified by society : I'm the only boy in a family of four children and our parent did no difference between boy and girl in the repartition of task and sport. My sisters are stronger than any other girl I know, including sportive one. They have the strength of lightly build men. That do a bit of sport.

Seriously, the average girl is ridiculously weak compared to them.

Don't raise girls to play dolls when boys are outside playing football and the gap will close a lot.

[Mindmaker]

Agreeing with Vector on this.
Gender roles are horribly outdated and we should drop them.

I'm tired of people people prosecuting me, just because I don't fit into their narrow framework.
I'm uncomfortable with my gender role, but that doesn't make me less of a man.

A (female) friend of mine used to jokingly call me "beste Freundin" (the female version of "best friend" in german), which I found uncomfortable.
Not because I believe that traits percieved as female are negative in any way.
It's simply an attack on my identity, by telling my which traits I'm allowed to posess.

[Christes]

The same goes for intellectual endeavors, of course.  This is probably a good time to bring up the three Polgar sisters. 

Basically, their father was a well-known chess teacher who had three children in an attempt to prove that "geniuses are made, not born."  The idea was that he and his wife would raise them to be very good at chess, among other things.  Now chess is a very male-dominated sport, and it just so happened that he got three daughters.  But he continued with the program, producing three very good chess players.  The best among them, Judit, easily plays with the very best male players in the world.  The others are still pretty good.

[The Doctor]

The way I see it, screw the biology. The quicker we get rid of biological systems and just keep the mind, the better.

The rest of you didn't seem to get how -far- I meant when I said technology could help. Changing mental structures in a way you want is an ability we need. I don't know about any of you, but there are certainly mental issues I'd love to get rid of, not all them problems. As well as adding some I don't have.

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, that's actually sounding pretty dystopian to me.

[Africa]

The way I see it, screw the biology. The quicker we get rid of biological systems and just keep the mind, the better.

...If you had a very good understanding of how the mind works, you wouldn't be saying that. It's like saying "let's get rid of the hardware and keep the software."

OK. So what's the software going to run on? Fairy dust?

Mind and body are one, and we wouldn't be human without both. That's also the reason you can't just "get rid of gender roles," because gender roles are to a great extent rooted in our biology. You can change attitudes toward gender roles, but good luck ever getting people to behave as though they don't exist.

[Vector]

Yeah, that's actually sounding pretty dystopian to me.

And to me, as well.  I just want to be able to bind my chest with no one bugging me about it.

In any case, Doctor, if you'd like to discuss Transhumanism at length, then you can make another thread for it.  I don't think this is necessarily the place for a prolonged debate.

That's also the reason you can't just "get rid of gender roles," because gender roles are to a great extent rooted in our biology.

At this point in our history, I disagree.

[Dimitri]

"Transgirl gets beaten in a McDonald's "

I normally just lurk, but I had to say something when I saw this.
Only one person stepped in, and it was an older woman. Seriously?
No one in the -ENTIRE FUCKING RESTAURANT- felt that someone being beaten merited intervention of some kind?

Amazing. Simply amazing. In the worst possible sense, obviously.


I would love to discuss some of the other things presented in the thread, but I'm not exactly the most eloquent of persons.
I would like to say 'Thank You' to Vector for starting the thread to begin with: Lot of interesting subjects being covered, and an interesting read in general.

[The Doctor]

OK. So what's the software going to run on? Fairy dust?

If I knew the exact details of how it'd work, I wouldn't be talking about it, I'd be doing it. As it is, it'll probably be some sort of machine-analog for neuron and neural connections. Like nanotechnology. Besides, I was talking more organs and limbs, rather than the brain. Though I can see how you could have been confused, since I started talking about mental structures.

Also, how is it dystopian? I'm not saying FORCE EVERYONE TO CHANGE AGAINST THEIR WILL. I mean, develop the technology to let people do it themselves. In that context, it seems pretty dystopia the way it is -now-. People aren't allowed to change that much, to any great extent.

Think of it this way. Would you, right now, take a pill that would make you want to murder everyone? Probably not, because you don't want to murder everyone right now, and wouldn't like changing in that way. So why would you use anything that would change you to something you don't like? I'm only talking about changing how you want, to a greater extent than you can currently.

Note: This is the last thing I'm gonna say. This forum doesn't seem conducive to thread about this, so I'm not gonna bother, but I did want to clear some things up, because I'm strange that way.

[Vector]

I would love to discuss some of the other things presented in the thread, but I'm not exactly the most eloquent of persons.
I would like to say 'Thank You' to Vector for starting the thread to begin with: Lot of interesting subjects being covered, and an interesting read in general.

Hey, you're welcome!  And please, feel free to come discuss.  Eloquence is not a requirement for discussion, just an open mind and a lack of being a raging jerkass.  I like to think we're a pretty laid-back cr--

...

Okay, we aren't laid-back at all.  But it's good to have you here.

[Duke 2.0]

No one in the -ENTIRE FUCKING RESTAURANT- felt that someone being beaten merited intervention of some kind?

Amazing. Simply amazing. In the worst possible sense, obviously.

Doesn't matter if the person being beat up was transgender, an old woman or a large buff guy. People don't want to get involved in violence. It's very easy to say that you should jump in and help defend when you hear about it, but being there faced with a sudden very jarring and frightening situation is a different matter. Morally I agree that more people should have stopped that, but I can't pass judgment on the crowd because I know the situation is difficult to be in.

[Africa]

OK. So what's the software going to run on? Fairy dust?

If I knew the exact details of how it'd work, I wouldn't be talking about it, I'd be doing it. As it is, it'll probably be some sort of machine-analog for neuron and neural connections. Like nanotechnology. Besides, I was talking more organs and limbs, rather than the brain. Though I can see how you could have been confused, since I started talking about mental structures.

The brain is wired into the whole body system. If with hypothetical future technology we could completely map out the brain (and keep in mind no two brains are the same) and create a version of it that didn't have any of the sensory input or motor output to the rest of the body, well...it wouldn't be anything you could call human.

@Vector: There's plenty of evidence to point to that...

[The Doctor]

That's horrible! Why would someone clone a brain and keep it sensory-deprived? That'd be the worst thing to do to someone!

[Leafsnail]

And to me, as well.  I just want to be able to bind my chest with no one bugging me about it.

I'm aware it isn't necessarily, but... is it to stop yourself from being judged by looks, and allow yourself to fit in easier as a human being?  Because if that's the case, there's also other issues to be solved in terms of how people look at women.

Of course, disregard this if it's just a matter of aesthetics >.>