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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 872891 times)

Criptfeind

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6840 on: November 07, 2011, 09:14:09 pm »

I have blue eyes, but I've always wanted green ones because green is my favorite color.

...

What?

You are objectively a terrible person. Just as bad as Hitler.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6841 on: November 07, 2011, 09:28:08 pm »

Things seem to be getting a little silly in here. It's fine to ask someone to rephrase something if their intent or message isn't clear, but going "omg what you said could possibly be misinterpreted as offensive! stop it now!" is a bit wacko. I somewhat doubt Vector's being racist or the dude in the article thinks people with blue eyes have some sort of superiority outside his little metaphor.

Political correctness and things like it are useful to prevent miscommunication. They have no value outside of that.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6842 on: November 07, 2011, 10:38:55 pm »

I was gonna dismiss the eye thing as reading too much into it until I read the windows-to-the-soul thing, which makes me think the difference between the guy in question and standard stereotypical Nazi here is only a matter of degree. It's a pretty significant degree! But it's still arbitrarily assigning greater value to an essentially meaningless pigment combination, and honestly the Nazi comparison is pretty valid because that was actually a key part of their ideology (for some reason). Comparing him to Mengele without clarification of that understanding, though, probably is what led to this whole... thing.

As for using the word "Aryanism", Vector used it completely correctly. "Aryan" might have a completely unrelated meaning that later got hijacked (and the intended meaning would've been obvious from context anyway, but at least you would have some basis for arguing), but "Aryanism" only has meaning in reference to Nazi ideology, as far as I'm aware. So consider yourself outnitpicked. :p
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Andir

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6843 on: November 07, 2011, 11:13:07 pm »

Well, Nazis determined the worth of a person by the pigments where (and I think what Leafsnail was saying) this guy wasn't (edit: note 1) judging worth, but image of worth.

It's all "hocus-pocus" to me, but it would be more of a spiritual notion... like saying someone is better at talking to others because they were born in a certain month.  It doesn't mean they are smarter, more/less educated... simply: their social interface is better because of the cards they were dealt.  (ie: Their language processing skills happen to be enhancing around the holidays and they were in contact with more people conversing with them.  Because of these two alignments, it was more beneficial to their development than someone born before or after that "perfect" month.)

Simply put, the color of your eyes determines how people converse with you, leading you to be a more open or closed person.  It doesn't inherently make you bad/good.  It simply dictates how you were "trained" by society.

Edit:
Note 1:  I don't know if he was, or wasn't.  This was improper wording.  I didn't read the story, only the quote presented.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 11:16:39 pm by Andir »
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Danaru

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6844 on: November 08, 2011, 12:12:35 am »

When I was a baby I had super blonde (almost white) hair and blue eyes, and as I got older, my hair turned dark brown and my eyes hazel. What would the nazis think about that?

Also regarding the "Aryan" thing, the nazis weren't exactly above stealing other people's nice things and turning them into symbols of hatred (Swastikas, the Roman Salute, the tiny moustache thing that I only know of as the "Hitler 'Stache). Unfortunately it has a double meaning now.
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Odd how "Experiment" in DF is often synonymous with "Raging inferno of death and dispair"

ECrownofFire

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6845 on: November 08, 2011, 12:26:04 am »

I was born with blue eyes (as most Caucasians are, actually), but they turned green. Then they turned brown on the DAY I turned 3. My mom says I woke up with brown eyes on my third birthday...

Anyway, I think having green eyes would be cool. And it's likely for my eyes to continue to change color as they already have.

But for anybody that isn't going to have their eyes change color, sounds just like any other cosmetic surgery. And like any other cosmetic surgery, definitely one that shouldn't be forced on anyone...

That guy is still an ass for saying that though. Seriously.
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scriver

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6846 on: November 08, 2011, 05:03:39 am »

And as a man of Scandinavian descent I am offended that blue eyes remind you of them.

As a (blue-eyed, even) Scandinavian man of Scandinavian descent I have no idea whatsoever what your have to be offended by, or what you being of Scandinavian descent have anything to do with it.


Let's clear up a few things.

Vector, don't throw around phrases like "Aryan" willy nilly like that.

There are four "birthplaces" of society, that being the Indus river valley, the huang he river valley, the Nile river valley, and the Tigris/Euphrates river valley (not too sure about the last one, it's been a few months).

That's four completely separate societies, each with different culture and ethnicity.

The "Aryans" were a group in southern India (Not sure if it was the coastal plains or the Indo-gangetic river), that formed a part of the hindu religion. That being that there were two groups, the Aryans and the Dravidians. While the Aryans formed the four upper castes of Hinduism, the Dravidians formed the bottom caste known as the "untouchables".

Spoiler: Ugh, derail (click to show/hide)

Lastly, instead of being offended on the behalf of a long dead people, you might want to consider being offended on behalf of the people who still half-way identify as Arian today and who also is pissed racists stole the word.


But for anybody that isn't going to have their eyes change color, sounds just like any other cosmetic surgery. And like any other cosmetic surgery, definitely one that shouldn't be forced on anyone...

And like all cosmetic surgery, it will be used by parents on their children if we allow it. And this is a procedure that is likely to give them glaucoma for the rest of their lives, or give them inflammations that'll the destroy the eye anyway.



... Wow, maybe I'm not actually even kidding about that.

I have been considering creating a thread about that development for quite some time now, so we can showcase all the "small" cases that doesn't have the weight of having their own threads - like Hungarian government appointing a well known nationalist as head of a cultural institution (I can't remember which one it was, either a theatre or an opera-house or something) in an effort to promote "Hungarian national culture".

SomeMany things are very, very Rotten in Europe these days.
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Love, scriver~

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6847 on: November 08, 2011, 05:07:56 am »

We have an election in 12 days. Given the choice of candidates, and what they say, I think the whole campaign could be summed up with " Subcreatures! Choose the form of the destructor!"
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Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

Virex

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6848 on: November 08, 2011, 06:25:06 am »

Wait, are we seriously contemplating surgically changing someone's eye color? What happened to tinted lenses?
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Luke_Prowler

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6849 on: November 08, 2011, 06:27:28 am »

'Cause some people are vain enough that simply faking it won't do. Honestly I don't get it, I'm prefectly happy with my body.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6850 on: November 08, 2011, 06:53:20 am »

Date line: Bay12 Forums.

Adults treat children badly because of eye color, thus proving you are a bad person if you want a specific eye color.

Edit: You know what? Why not. Lets extend the logic. You are a bad person if you want to be anything different from what you are. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you Truean.

Gender is performative.  It is not solely cosmetic in nature, so that one's genitals will strictly inform how you behave, period.  That is why being trans falls under a different category, much like a person hoping to be humble rather than arrogant, or perhaps patient and calm rather than an active go-getter.  As such, Criptfeind's logic is a false extension of the issue at hand.

Blue eyes are not an activity.  There is hopefully not a "blue-eyed personality" or "blue-eyed designated social role."

A hierarchy of physical appearances does exist in the United States, and quite a bit of it is based on coloration.  Please note that, for example, hair that is a little bit brown and a little bit blond is called "dirty blond."

The author of the article did not frame his argument and desire to turn brown eyes blue in terms of cosmetic fun and games.  It is framed as a method employed to increase soulfulness, that is, humanity.

The idea that you could become more human by changing your brown eyes to blue is deeply problematic and indeed reminiscent of certain Nazi projects.  It is one thing to wish your child had blue eyes, but see them for who they are and treat them as wonderful just the way they are.  It is another thing to treat those with brown eyes as less human, especially because brown eyes are more often correlated with other dark pigmentation, much like all those silly people who have told me "you would be pretty if you just straightened your hair."

History and this argument keep repeating, because we never learned. Facts, the what, disputed or not, are only half the lesson. Purpose, the why, is the most important part. Memorize names, dates, trivia if you will. Please also recall the reasons and rhymes to restrain repeats....

Shaping human bodies or minds are techniques. Their use aspires to the greatest within us; their misuse to the grotesque.... Such acts are only misuse when done in wrongful reason. When determining the rightness of reason look to purpose: motivation, consequence, cost, necessity. Motivation is the subjective result desired. To assert one's superiority, another's inferiority, and completely unfounded characteristics on account of a mere cosmetic trait, is wrongful. Changing anything in and of itself, is not wrongful. Doing so for personal pleasure is not. Doing so for others' pain is. Consequence is the objective result achieved, often differing from those desired. pride, in appearance or anything, is wrongful when gained by imposition. Cost is at once available alternatives, operational, monetary. Necessity is consequence of paying or not paying the costs above. and the prioritization of alternatives. The questions are purity of motive, actualities, and if the ends justify the means.

Changing eye color cosmetically is only wrong if purposefully done to insist on one's superiority by means that don't justify the ends. Saying blue eyes make you more of a person and everyone without them less is the problem. (emphasis added) The means, contacts or surgery, are not inherently a problem unless we get into available alternatives and are depriving someone of a doctor's services for a non cosmetic procedure, or contact lenses for visual correction rather than appearance (which addresses at once cost and necessity). I think we can agree eye color is pretty much cosmetic.

Changing or selecting gender would only be wrong if done to insist on one's superiority. The same arguments apply. Wretched though I am, I would not insist upon my SRS if it meant another would die for want of the doctor's knife. That said, I'd say it'd have priority over any cosmetic procedure. Ending my misery is not more important than someone's life; it is more important than their vanity. This procedure would not be cosmetic, despite not giving me everything a woman has or can do. Those are regrettable limitations of the treatment, not skin deep cosmetic features. The difference being that if I could be entirely female in every way, I absolutely would, the person getting cosmetic plastic surgery, is getting exactly what they want, permanent cosmetics.... On the contrary, if I am able to get this surgery, people will insist I'm inferior and impose untrue, negative characteristics on me in spite of everything I've done. A lot of people never look at me the same once they find out....

What we never learned:How sad, it's easier to cut flesh than for people to cut out being superficial.... History and this argument keep repeating, because we never learn.... There are so many women who are more beautiful than I. The most beautiful are those who, though more beautiful than I, are beautiful enough not to look down on me for it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 07:14:43 am by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

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Pnx

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6851 on: November 08, 2011, 07:10:53 am »

I like when Truan talks with mismatched rainbows.
...
That's about all I can contribute to this conversation.
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Blargityblarg

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6852 on: November 08, 2011, 07:12:39 am »

I like when Truan talks with mismatched rainbows.
...
That's about all I can contribute to this conversation.

It's kinda hard to read on Darkling, though, especially the blue.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6853 on: November 08, 2011, 07:16:57 am »

I like when Truan talks with mismatched rainbows.
...
That's about all I can contribute to this conversation.

It's kinda hard to read on Darkling, though, especially the blue.

Changed to green. I hope that helps. :) The colors do match though. The format is color coded and all ideas of a given color relate to one another. Red to red, green to green, etc. I find it really helps me keep on track easier and to address each element. This really helps when writing briefs and I have to keep everything straight, which facts go to what elements of the case for example.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 07:20:27 am by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Rose

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Re: Vector's Chill and Relaxed Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #6854 on: November 08, 2011, 07:28:56 am »

I just finished reading Terry Pratchett's 'Snuff' and I just thought I'd mention it here as a book that deals very strongly with progressivism and brings it's point across very well.

Like many of his books, actually.
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