Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Durin Stronginthearm]

Either I missed something, or I'm incredibly naive.

The latter.

Or maybe you're the one who reads too much into things.

I think several people here have a very naive and simplistic take on communication and how it is carried out regards seduction.

That's part of the problem. She was not "essentially asked for sex" because he did not ask for sex.

A euphemistic proposition is still a proposition.

Tell me if I'm reading it wrong but he sounds like she was asked to come over to his room for coffee - and while the context makes it weird and creepy, automagically equating that proposition to "asking for sex and objectifying her as a woman" is a bit of a stretch.

I find that an extremely Pollyanna-ish interpretation of the events.

Also, if the guy was really did just want a coffee with her, you'd think he'd have said so when all this kicked off. But I can't seem to find anywhere where he or his supporters have said so.

[Heron TSG]

It's a guy who wants sex from coffee with a woman he doesn't even know and probably won't ever meet again

Also a possibility. For example, I once asked my female teammate to come over to my hotel room one night after a round of Knowledge Bowl Nationals to have some coffee and discuss plans for tomorrow's round. I didn't even consider that what I was actually asking for was sex.

Or maybe I'm a sarcastic bastard.

[kaijyuu]

It's a good thing you're stronger than most men then. I get physically sick at the thought of what you could've pulled off in those situations....

And besides; is it sexist now to ask for sex? Provided he didn't force anything I don't think he did anything wrong at all (even assuming he was using a euphemism). I'm not gonna argue it wasn't weird and creepy; just not "objectifying."

And for the record, there's no reason the recipient of such a request should "put up with it" if they don't want to. Tell the dude to go fuck himself. I got no problem with such a response. It'd be nicely symbolic, too.

It's a guy who wants sex from a woman he doesn't even know and probably won't ever meet again, asking it in a secluded space when there's just the two of them, without considering for a moment that she may be uncomfortable with the situation. That sounds pretty objectifying...

Absolutely none of that follows my understanding of the word "objectification." Poor social skills, sure.

"Objectification" requires one to stop seeing the other person as a human being and instead an object of attraction. Given that he didn't grope, rape, or humiliate her, I think it's save to say he didn't lose respect for her as a human being.... well also provided there wasn't more to the "conversation" than asking for coffee, anyway. If he started eying her up and down and making lewd gestures, sure!

Switch the genders. If a women asks a man to head up to her room, does she automatically lose all respect for him and see him as nothing but a hunk of man candy? I don't think that's remotely reasonable an assumption. There are further implications (namely that half the populace are considered rapists) when the man's asking, but none lead to assuming objectification to be reasonable.

[KaelGotDwarves]

That's part of the problem. She was not "essentially asked for sex" because he did not ask for sex.

A euphemistic proposition is still a proposition.

Tell me if I'm reading it wrong but he sounds like she was asked to come over to his room for coffee - and while the context makes it weird and creepy, automagically equating that proposition to "asking for sex and objectifying her as a woman" is a bit of a stretch.

I find that an extremely Pollyanna-ish interpretation of the events.

Also, if the guy was really did just want a coffee with her, you'd think he'd have said so when all this kicked off. But I can't seem to find anywhere where he or his supporters have said so.

Honestly, everyone's reading way too much into something that we won't ever know. As a guy, getting told that anytime I ask a lone woman to come over at night is objectifying her for sex is something I find disturbing and somewhat laughable at the same time. I have never had that problem, but I always make my intentions clear.

[Vector]

All right, Barbarossa.

Now turn that teammate (someone you know) into a woman you've never met before, who just told you and a bunch of other people publicly that she felt uncomfortable when people did that sort of thing, especially people who she'd never talked to.  And you follow her into an elevator and say, hey, let's have coffee in my room.

I've had guys follow me home before and ask for my email address.  Nothing came of it.  But it was still just not the way I wanted to get to know someone, frankly.

[Virex]

That's part of the problem. She was not "essentially asked for sex" because he did not ask for sex.

A euphemistic proposition is still a proposition.

Tell me if I'm reading it wrong but he sounds like she was asked to come over to his room for coffee - and while the context makes it weird and creepy, automagically equating that proposition to "asking for sex and objectifying her as a woman" is a bit of a stretch.

I find that an extremely Pollyanna-ish interpretation of the events.

Also, if the guy was really did just want a coffee with her, you'd think he'd have said so when all this kicked off. But I can't seem to find anywhere where he or his supporters have said so.

Honestly, everyone's reading way too much into something that we won't ever know. As a guy, getting told that anytime I ask a lone woman to come over at night is objectifying her for sex is something I find disturbing and somewhat laughable at the same time. I have never had that problem, but I always make my intentions clear.

Asking naive women is no substitute for proper behavior. Even if you're not intending to do anything wrong, your behavior in itself is threatening.

It's a good thing you're stronger than most men then. I get physically sick at the thought of what you could've pulled off in those situations....

And besides; is it sexist now to ask for sex? Provided he didn't force anything I don't think he did anything wrong at all (even assuming he was using a euphemism). I'm not gonna argue it wasn't weird and creepy; just not "objectifying."

And for the record, there's no reason the recipient of such a request should "put up with it" if they don't want to. Tell the dude to go fuck himself. I got no problem with such a response. It'd be nicely symbolic, too.

It's a guy who wants sex from a woman he doesn't even know and probably won't ever meet again, asking it in a secluded space when there's just the two of them, without considering for a moment that she may be uncomfortable with the situation. That sounds pretty objectifying...

Absolutely none of that follows my understanding of the word "objectification." Poor social skills, sure.

"Objectification" requires one to stop seeing the other person as a human being and instead an object of attraction. Given that he didn't grope, rape, or humiliate her, I think it's save to say he didn't lose respect for her as a human being.... well also provided there wasn't more to the "conversation" than asking for coffee, anyway. If he started eying her up and down and making lewd gestures, sure!

Since when do you need to hump someone to objectify them? He knew fully well that she couldn't get away or call for help. She also indicated that she was not comfortable with the kind of behavior he displayed beforehand and he knew that. That, taken together, displays a gross lack of respect for her as a person, which leaves no other option then that he considered her as a piece of furniture that happened to move by herself.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

That's part of the problem. She was not "essentially asked for sex" because he did not ask for sex.

A euphemistic proposition is still a proposition.

Tell me if I'm reading it wrong but he sounds like she was asked to come over to his room for coffee - and while the context makes it weird and creepy, automagically equating that proposition to "asking for sex and objectifying her as a woman" is a bit of a stretch.

I find that an extremely Pollyanna-ish interpretation of the events.

Also, if the guy was really did just want a coffee with her, you'd think he'd have said so when all this kicked off. But I can't seem to find anywhere where he or his supporters have said so.

Honestly, everyone's reading way too much into something that we won't ever know. As a guy, getting told that anytime I ask a lone woman to come over at night is objectifying her for sex is something I find disturbing and somewhat laughable at the same time. I have never had that problem, but I always make my intentions clear.

No one's saying that every time you ask a woman back to yours it's a proposition.  It depends on context. In this context, the most likely interpretation is that it was a proposition.

[kaijyuu]

Since when do you need to hump someone to objectify them? He knew fully well that she couldn't get away or call for help. She also indicated that she was not comfortable with the kind of behavior he displayed beforehand and he knew that. That, taken together, displays a gross lack of respect for her as a person, which leaves no other option then that he considered her as a piece of furniture that happened to move by herself.

Bolded part's pretty funny because the very thing you quoted proves I didn't say that.


Conclusions, we like jumping to them.

Anywho I'm going to agree with Kael here:

Honestly, everyone's reading way too much into something that we won't ever know.

It's quite possible you're right and he's a sexist bastard. I'm not gonna deny that.

[Vector]

I'm not saying he's a sexist bastard.  I'm saying he doesn't respect boundaries (at fucking all), which makes him dangerous, much in the way that a person who always does precisely what they want is dangerous.  They don't ever have to do anything wrong (it may never be in their interest), but it is still a very dangerous place to be.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Asking naive women is no substitute for proper behavior. Even if you're not intending to do anything wrong, your behavior in itself is threatening.

Clarify this a bit for me, will you? I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

No one's saying that every time you ask a woman back to yours it's a proposition.  It depends on context. In this context, the most likely interpretation is that it was a proposition.

The context I got out of it was that he was making an ass of himself, but certainly not a serious proposition for sex.

[Virex]

Asking naive women is no substitute for proper behavior. Even if you're not intending to do anything wrong, your behavior in itself is threatening.

Clarify this a bit for me, will you? I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Just because someone doesn't feel threatened when you do something doesn't mean it isn't. It's just as likely that the person in question just misjudges the situation due to a lack of experience or because you are seemingly harmless.

[Rose]

So let me get this straight...

If I want to get to know girl, and try chatting them up,  it's inherently a threatening gesture, and if I do it while waiting for the elevator to reach its destination, I'm cornering them so they can't run away.

Good to know.

[Vector]

So let me get this straight...

If I want to get to know girl, and try chatting them up,  it's inherently a threatening gesture, and if I do it while waiting for the elevator to reach its destination, I'm cornering them so they can't run away.

Good to know.

If it's late at night, you do it in an empty elevator, and you're asking her into your room for coffee (instead of the easily accessible bar downstairs) after she's already told you she thinks that sort of thing is creepy, then why yes, that's not a thing to do.

[Rose]

Yes, but a many of the arguments here seem to be implying that any invitation to your room at any time is for the purposes of getting into her pants.

And we are the sexist ones.

[Virex]

So let me get this straight...

If I want to get to know girl, and try chatting them up,  it's inherently a threatening gesture, and if I do it while waiting for the elevator to reach its destination, I'm cornering them so they can't run away.

Good to know.

That sounds about right actually. Unless the woman in question is explicitly trying to get your attention, it's better to assume that you shouldn't talk to her.