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[palsch]

The level of mysandry involved in her defence matched the misogyny

That is flatly absurd and requires a wilful misreading of her article. The context for that comes shortly afterwards;

And if you’re fervently resisting that help… then I have to assume that getting laid is not the point.

When women explain to you — in a calm, nuanced, proportionate way — that there are some contexts in which your advances are less likely to be well-received than others, and you respond by sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming about ball-busting, man-hating feminists who are hell-bent on eradicating all flirting and sex and eroding your First Amendment right to proposition any woman at any time and place? When you resist hearing that hitting on a woman who’s alone in an elevator in a strange city at four o’clock in the morning is not likely to be well-received, that it’s likely to be perceived as a potential threat, and that you are likely to be perceived as an insensitive clod at best if you do it? When we explain ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times, that elevators are well-documented as a common place for women to get raped and that it’s therefore not an appropriate place to make sexual advances — and you still reply, “But I don’t understand what the problem is with elevators”?

I have to assume that getting laid is not the point.

I have to assume that the point is something entirely different. I have to assume that you will do anything to resist hearing that women experience male advances in a very different context from the way men experience female advances. I have to assume that you have an active resistance to understanding that women’s experiences are different from men’s: that (among other things) women routinely get our professional/ intellectual/ artistic accomplishments dismissed in favor of a focus on our sexual attractiveness, and that women have to be seriously cautious about physical and sexual violence from men. When you are so vehemently unwilling to see some of the ways that privilege works in your favor, I have to assume that maintaining privilege is the point.

The early responses were mostly pointing out why the behaviour was seen as wrong and trying to help guys who couldn't see why propositioning a woman in a situation where she couldn't get away in the small hours of the morning might be seen as threatening. People were trying to help men understand why women may feel uncomfortable in certain situations, helping those men deal with women in social situations and, by extension, get laid.

Claiming mysandry in this post is a real reach, and using that one reach as an extension to dismiss both sides as equally bad is even worse.

I did not see misogyny in the incident in the elevator at all.

It was much more the response to the incident and the online arguments afterwards. The one incident is a single worrying symptom of men in the movement not getting it. The response online has been an extended exposure of a really nasty underbelly of sexism within the atheist/sceptic movement.

So, I've just one question: when a woman actually expects the man she's attracted to to be the active side, is she misogynistic or misandric?

Related three posts.

[Il Palazzo]

So, I've just one question: when a woman actually expects the man she's attracted to to be the active side, is she misogynistic or misandric?

Related three posts.

And the point being?

[Phmcw]

No this is not flatly absurd : people have to deal with selfishness and objectification all the time, whether because they are pretty, rich, influential, useful...
The thing is : no this behaviour was not sexism, that was selfishness or rudeness, but not sexism, as for the article you're quoting "we are explaining you (stupid male) how to get laid" was bad enough, I don't exactly see how "if you disagree with me you're a sexist pig" make it better.

Trust me, I get her point perfectly, I just disagree completely with that being feminism or a problem specific to the atheist community at all.

[palsch]

And the point being?

No point. Just figured they might help explore that question. It popped up just before I was going to post and her blog happened to be in a tab already.

If you want what I take away from them it's that stringent gender roles in this case harm everyone, male and female, and I'm damned glad the social circles I mostly hang out in (tending towards the alternative when it comes to music and sexuality) tend to avoid such hangups. I don't think individual cases usually stem from personal misogyny or misandry, rather from internalised gender roles that come from social misandry/misogyny, and I'm not entirely confident those are the right terms for this context.

On the other hand I think that such things are often the origin of misogyny. See the Nice Guys™ problem.

The thing is : no this behaviour was not sexism, that was selfishness or rudeness, but not sexism,

I'm not clear what point you are talking about here. If it's the original incident then I mostly agree, although I do think that such a lack of empathy or consideration in this context is an issue of concern for feminists and anyone interested in gender issues.

as for the article you're quoting "we are explaining you (stupid male) how to get laid" was bad enough, I don't exactly see how "if you disagree with me you're a sexist pig" make it better.

Trust me, I get her point perfectly, I just disagree completely with that being feminism or a problem specific to the atheist community at all.

Except that you still seem to be missing her point. She was describing the exchanges that took place between herself and a number of others and those on the other side of the debate.

The people on her side tried to help men who explicitly didn't get the problem understand. These were the point who were saying there was 'zero bad' in the situation and that they didn't see anything wrong with what the man did. I think we can both agree someone who says that needs help and advice on how to deal with women, even if it's just "don't do that, it's creepy."

The getting laid part is incidental; the context for understanding was hitting on women, so trying for sex is sort of implied.

The men's response was to scream about her (and the others) trying to stop them flirting with or hitting on women at all, despite that not being anything to do with what she said. It was the very criticism of their privileged position - the very pointing out that they are privileged at all - that they were objecting to.

That is, they were saying she was a misandrist to avoid having to engage her actual arguments. Effective strategy I'm sure.

As for this being specific to the atheist community, it's not. I actually find it's even worse in other online communities (and the gaming community had it's own recent blowup with that Magic date nonsense). On the other hand the atheist community is a group that loves to contrast itself with restrictive religious groups by how progressive it is, often explicitly on gender issues. For it to have such a large segment have such a sexist meltdown is a real worry.

[kaijyuu]

I don't think individual cases usually stem from personal misogyny or misandry, rather from internalised gender roles that come from social misandry/misogyny, and I'm not entirely confident those are the right terms for this context.

Perhaps the term your looking for is "double standard"?

[Phmcw]

What you've had was, in my opinion, atheists acting stupidly because they felt their community was attacked.
She implied that atheist were misogynist (when it's not even part of the problem) and they responded by saying no.
But as they felt attacked, they reacted quite violently, prompting a quick response from the feminists, which in turn...

I didn't actually expected any better reaction from both community (or in this case from both part of the community, rather), because that's how we work all. Stupid mammal tribe instinct.

[Andir]

I think we can both agree someone who says that needs help and advice on how to deal with women, even if it's just "don't do that, it's creepy."

Obviously, the best way to do that is to tell everyone in a video blog and make him feel outcast and as if he was "sexualizing her" in front of everybody.  (I don't know the exact phrase he used, but if it's anything like what she said... I don't see a problem.)

Can we agree that she didn't do it right?

[Vector]

How was she supposed to do it, then?  I'm not agreeing unless you've got something better.

[Andir]

How was she supposed to do it, then?  I'm not agreeing unless you've got something better.

Tell the guy on the elevator.  "Sorry, I'm not comfortable doing that."

[Vector]

You seem to not understand the nature of these closed-room situations and the dangers they represent for women.  Or that they're happening all the time.

We're warned about stairwells, we're warned about elevators, we're warned about closed doors, we're warned about not being able to access a phone, being silenced, being far away from other women, being alone, drinking and eating with others.  Okay?  It's like we're being prepared to escape assassination.

This guy fucked up big time.  He'd just been informed, at length, about why he shouldn't have done what he did.  Then he went and did it anyway.  A person who knowingly ignores the boundaries and consent of another person, particularly in this manner, begins to lose his right to privacy.

And this is how it goes, again and again, moment after moment.

[Andir]

What she said he said (he said-she said... love third party analysis) seemed harmless enough.  "Would you like to come up for some coffee.  You seem like an interesting person." (it was something along those lines...)  Maybe he wasn't there for the original speech?

As a guy, it's hard enough to be forced into speaking up as per required in social situations.  We have to be the "instigators" or you end up alone.  (Going on 10 years myself.  I stopped asking women out because I wasn't having any luck finding someone who was compatible and none of them ask me...even though I still do get casual hints from time to time.  [Stop being coy and just ask!])  If you're on an elevator and you're the only two there, there's no social embarrassment from rejection.  (There's rejection, but he wouldn't have had 4-5 other guys see it and mock him later...yeah, it happens)  So alone with the person in a quiet setting was probably his comfort zone.  Too bad it wasn't her's.  Now, anyone that saw him enter the elevator with him thinks he's a creep.  Excellent way to "teach him"

If she/you/anyone are paranoid about people talking to you in a quiet setting, carry something to defend yourself (tazer, paper spray, whistle, car keys...) in case it goes bad.  Don't expect guys to pick the right time and place for every interaction with you.  I'm not going to say you'll never get hurt if you try to defend yourself, but being passive aggressive and blasting him on a video isn't going to help.  She could have brought it up in another speech, avoided using that particular situation and maybe he would have caught the drift.  Maybe:

"Another thing I'd like to bring up.  I'm not comfortable in close quarters with strange men.  Be it a dark hallway, an elevator, or what have you.  To those men listening, please be courteous to women who might feel as I do and are already leery or defensive."

Heck, he may have thought that he was trying to make her comfortable by saying: "Don't take this the wrong way." and "I find you highly interesting." (That's not exact... but I'm not watching the video again.)

[ChairmanPoo]

.... i think this one was already addressed way back, and everyone made their points...

[Andir]

Yeah, I believe I missed that one.  Sorry.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

You don't hit on women in enclosed, private spaces such as lifts. I thought everyone knew that, and the reasons for it. Even serial seducers I know think it's an incredibly creepy, rapey thing to do.

[SalmonGod]

I didn't... but then, I've never hit on a women.  Ever.  But I could still see myself doing something awkward like that in a very much non-hitting on sense anyway.  I don't think I have any social compass for that sort of thing, or whatever you would call it.  If I didn't have other people to point it out to me after the fact, I'd probably believe that no one has ever flirted with me, either.