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[Bauglir]

I am unsure what part of knowing Vector well over the Internet involves knowing what sorts of clothes she would or would not wear, though. I mean, I suppose there's the photo thread, but I'm not sure how relevant it would be. It might be a decent enough baseline assumption, but I'm not sure how "Oh, Vector might wear X" could ever lead to "I need to reevaluate my assessment of Vector as a person". Maybe I put too little stock into the value of clothing choices?[/tangent]

[Mindmaker]

You kinda can't win on this one, people judge on appearances very easily, and it's annoying as hell.
To put my personal guy grievances along side that issue, there's the annoying fact that people will consider you a threat, and sometimes other guys won't consider you enough of one.
If you don't dress and behave masculine enough, people also tend to consider you gay. So for most guys you have to broadcast your sexuality at all times, which of course leads into the issue where people will look out for women, while expecting men to fend for themselves. Because offering help might make them seem weak.

It's that kind of stuff that makes me feel guys get the short end of the stick, but I question that.
At the end of the day all I can say is that the world frigging sucks, and I only hope I'm not managing to make it worse.

This is one of the reasons why I hate being a girl.  You're fucked over pretty much no matter what.  You wear unsexy clothing and everyone ignores you (or, more likely, you get lots of heckling and funny looks, for failing to please the eye of straight men--from both genders, of course).  You wear sexy-ish clothing and you get too much attention from some people, and there are other people who just can't talk to you period.

I'm expected to be confident and assertive, displaying it on every occasion.
Not to mention that I have to be interested in sex 24/7 and participate in any related discussion, because if I'm not my sexuality gets questioned.

Can we agree that gender doesn't suck, only the "roles" and expectations tied to them?

Why is it that whenever a woman brings up a problem, a lot of men always chime in with completely irrelevant or negligible grievances to prove that they too have it bad? I understand you feel like you're getting shafted, but seriously you're downplaying real problems with luxury problems and projections here. You're using the same tactics as men's right activists and other antifeminists; drowning real concenrs in irrelevant complains that they can't ignore or they'll look like heartless bitches.

Well, hey. At least you didn't call me a dick this time. But who are you to decide what is "irrelevant" or "neglible"? How about being constructive for once?
Anyway, I didn't dismiss what she said, only pointed out ther underlying issue and that if affects the other side too.

[Virex]

It's occasional inconvenience in a social situation that predominantly expects you to be independent and act on that (meaning that people generally expect you to not adhere to social norms anyway) versus a social expectation of submissiveness and perpetual stigmatization regardless of your behavior. If you're going to argue that you come anywhere near the issues woman are faced with you're going to have to provide some evidence.

Difference between read and "Read". I do the latter .P

Also I'm not sure if Virex is replying to him or Vector so that post comes off as sorta confusing. But if anything this topic exploding is showing at the very least that gender roles in anything don't do anything good for anyone.

Vector snuck in edgeways, I was adressing Squiqo. Added a quote for you.

[Truean]

*shrug*

This is one of the reasons why I hate being a girl.  You're fucked over pretty much no matter what.  You wear unsexy clothing and everyone ignores you (or, more likely, you get lots of heckling and funny looks, for failing to please the eye of straight men--from both genders, of course).  You wear sexy-ish clothing and you get too much attention from some people, and there are other people who just can't talk to you period.

I get tired.

But yes, SalmonGod, if we ever met I'd be sure to show off just how undesirable I am, in order to minimize everyone else's discomfort.


@Truean: <3 <3 <3  She's back and kicking ass!

[hugs softly] Thank you, I really did miss this place. Glad to be back.

As for the gender thing, which I'm sadly caught in the middle of.... Life sucks, for pretty much everyone; it just sucks differently. I don't know about "better" or "worse."

[Mindmaker]

Well apparently I and my opinions/experiences are not welcome here.
Foolish me, with believing the virtual world wasn't as shit as the real world.

Ah whatever, I still have my medication.

[Vector]

"Back it up or don't say it" is a standard all of us have to live by, Mindmaker, not just you.

You are welcome here.  Passive-aggressive behavior is not.

[Siquo]

So yes, I'm sure some empathy happened somewhere.

Here, have some: I feel for you, and how hard shit like that can be for you (this is 100% sincere, btw, I know it can sound sarcastic).

You're insisting that women need your superior, masculine compassion and understanding to be allowed to feel that way. You're insisting that women need to be able to connect with male feelings instead of allowing them to have their own feelings independent of yours. I would've hoped you could see the problem with that.

Uhh, no, I see individuals, not genders, so the whole masculine/feminine thing can be left out of the equation, your insistence on sexism astonishes me. People form bonds through the sharing of experiences, and I thought that was what was going on here. Like "Oh hey that sucks I had a similiar experience let me tell you about it."


Edit: both genders can suffer from sexism. Otherwise they'd just call it feminism. (okay, that was a joke )

[Mindmaker]

I guess my live has been a delusion then.

[Pnx]

For the record, what I was trying to say was, "My experiences with life make me feel like men have it worse than women, but I am in no position to judge since I have not experienced both sides of the issue, and everything is always worse when it happens to you."

[Vector]

I'm leaving this conversation for the next few hours, half because I need to study and half because I'm becoming too angry to discuss reasonably.

I wish everyone the best of luck in resolving the issues at hand.

[Rose]

I am unsure what part of knowing Vector well over the Internet involves knowing what sorts of clothes she would or would not wear, though. I mean, I suppose there's the photo thread, but I'm not sure how relevant it would be. It might be a decent enough baseline assumption, but I'm not sure how "Oh, Vector might wear X" could ever lead to "I need to reevaluate my assessment of Vector as a person". Maybe I put too little stock into the value of clothing choices?[/tangent]

Well, in so much as one can 'know' the style of clothing she chooses to show herself wearing when she shares photos. (I seem to recall some rather nice sweaters)

[Vector]

Oh, I'm going to add:

What if you say "Men have it worse than women," and I say "No, women have it worse than men!"

And then you say "Well, I guess my entire life has been a delusion."

And I reply, "Well, I guess my entire life has been a delusion."

And you say: "At least I've got pills!"

And I say: "Wow, I can't trump that, I guess I lost the fucking pity party, haha.  You're right, men have everything worse than women ever did, because you have done a better job at emotional manipulation."

And then it turns into a war of who can fucking guilt trip the other one harder, a force of numbers game.

This is why we back up our fucking statements with fucking evidence, because we argue in such a way that we aren't only pulling at the heart strings of our friends in order to win by hurting others.

But, ah, well.  I guess everyone wins.

[Truean]

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2011/10/14/guns-and-bars-law-tested-by-first-drunken-idiot-waving-gun-in-bar

Eh.... Frankly, I'm now waiting for the impact of carrying guns into a bar on drunk driving.... I really don't want a police officer shot during an OVI stop and I'm afraid this might make that more likely to happen.... I really am afraid of that by the way, and partially for selfish reasons. I'm afraid I'm going to have to defend that client....

[kaijyuu]

I'll just pop in and point out that who has it "better" or "worse" is irrelevant. We're all subject to stupid gender roles and we should be fighting *all* of them, hand in hand.

[Vector]

I'll just pop in and point out that who has it "better" or "worse" is irrelevant. We're all subject to stupid gender roles and we should be fighting *all* of them, hand in hand.

You know, I would be agreeing with you, but apparently the statement "I hate being a woman" is fighting words in these parts and must be taken as "it is inherently worse to be a woman than it is to be a man," whilst having absolutely nothing to do with what was stated in the first place.

Not a very feminist statement, now is that?

But oh well, we live in the world we live in.