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[Virex]

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things and also why appealing to free will, decency and common sense doesn't work in this case. Plus, for men being sexy is an escapade, for women it's a curse and a duty.

That's what I meant by "difference of opinion".

Remember the Golden Rule

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things

"Trust"? "Judgement Call"!? Its a fucking comic book! They weren't exactly pressing, life or death matters even before print was dead!

It's not just a comic book, it's a corner stone in our world's oppressive culture (along with most other media). I don't think the golden rule covers cases that someone cannot grasp in the first place. And that it is "just" a comic book is actually central to my objections. You can expect someone to be vigilant in important situations or when the sexism is blatant. In situations in which it's subliminal and especially during leisure activities, people put their guard down...

[Aqizzar]

Holy crap, this thread is flying today.

Of those, only Conchata Ferell could really be called overweight and even that is pushing it. Of course, by television standards they're morbidly obese...

Since when is Rosanne Barr not overweight?  That was half of her characterization, especially in those days.

Anyway, I've been trying to think of some "unattractive", if not necessarily fat, women in TV and movies.  I came to an idea after thinking of some of them.  Along with Rosanne, there was Katie Sagal's character on Married With Children.  Katie Sagal is not herself "ugly", but Peg Bundy was definitely supposed to be after stage makeup; that was the point, she was a preening housewife who thought she was attractive but really wasn't.  That show was already making fun of the "Ugly Guy Hot Wife" dynamic years before it became the dominant style of sitcom.

In movies, there was any role Ethel Merman ever played, most especially in It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad World, with a similar character.  Her entire plotline revolved around her being a terrible and terribly unattractive person, with slapstick meted out against her for being a shrew.  More recently, there was League of Their Own, where several of the characters are specifically described as "ugly", and were cast as such within the confines of Hollywood casting (even ugly men are never really ugly).  Admittedly, this whole effect is part of the what the movie was about, but you still had unattractive female actors.

In thinking about this, and how these examples are all at least twenty years old, I honestly think there's another factor in why you almost never see unattractive women in media, and I know I'm going to be crucified for it.  This thread has a lot of what I'd call "rational feminist" opinions, namely that a reasonable portrayal of what are supposed to be real people should include some unattractive people.  Showing only attractive women is sexist, because it sets an unrealistic standard.  I think some producers cast that way with an expectation, and not undeservedly so, of being hit by the "radical feminist" opinion, which instead treats any portrayal of women as less than ideal as sexist.

To what extent I don't know, but I really do think that factor is there.  If you tried to produce and release It's A Mad⁴ World today, every magazine in the country would call it the most hideously misogynist movie produced in thirty years for how much they insult and beat up on a respectable female character like Mrs. Marcus cum Ethel Merman.  And they would, technically, be right.

[Bohandas]

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things and also why appealing to free will, decency and common sense doesn't work in this case. Plus, for men being sexy is an escapade, for women it's a curse and a duty.

That's what I meant by "difference of opinion".

Remember the Golden Rule

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things

"Trust"? "Judgement Call"!? Its a fucking comic book! They weren't exactly pressing, life or death matters even before print was dead!

It's not just a comic book, it's a corner stone in our world's oppressive culture (along with most other media). I don't think the golden rule covers cases that someone cannot grasp in the first place.

Then you would have me be a hypocrite?

I could make an equally valid complaint about men NOT being portrayed as sex objects.

[Bohandas]

And that it is "just" a comic book is actually central to my objections. You can expect someone to be vigilant in important situations or when the sexism is blatant. In situations in which it's subliminal and especially during leisure activities, people put their guard down...

This is the same sort of deranged black and white thinking that leads to bizarre zero-tolerance policies.

The job of the media is to entertain, not to depict an ideal society.

[Virex]

That is indeed something I'm having a lot of trouble with, finding a way to reconcile the idea that these comic books are repulsive although many don't realize that with the idea that being too repressive will only have negative effects. That is however a matter distinct from the moral matter we are discussing right now. And while I agree that the media exist for entertainment, one should be wary that ideas expressed subliminally in entertainment can seep into common culture, with all potentially negative effects associated with that. See for example the obsession with having a large rack or the rise of mini skirts and other clothing articles of similar degrading nature. Those didn't just appear, they were promoted strongly. I have no clue what to do about that, but we should know they exist, something that many dispute or downplay right now. 

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things and also why appealing to free will, decency and common sense doesn't work in this case. Plus, for men being sexy is an escapade, for women it's a curse and a duty.

That's what I meant by "difference of opinion".

Remember the Golden Rule

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things

"Trust"? "Judgement Call"!? Its a fucking comic book! They weren't exactly pressing, life or death matters even before print was dead!

It's not just a comic book, it's a corner stone in our world's oppressive culture (along with most other media). I don't think the golden rule covers cases that someone cannot grasp in the first place.

Then you would have me be a hypocrite?

I would advice against self-inflicted ad homini, they generally don't help your case all that much. As for the question, I don't think you're a hypocrit per se. Deluded perhaps, but then again, we all are.

[Levi]

I'm going to put myself in the "Its just a comic book" group.  Yes its tasteless and yes its an unoriginal/boring way to write a character.  But you can always just not buy the thing and find a better comic.  The only real vote you have is with your wallet.

[Andir]

The medical definition has been heavely influenced by what society deems pretty though.

I ... find that an odd statement.

Overweight people live longer than "healthy" people, even when correcting for income and social background. So much for the medical side of that definition.

A BMI of 18.5 to 25 is considered normal.

The people who lived the longest of all were those with BMIs of 25, which lies between the ideal and overweight margins.

25 is considered normal, people who lived the longest were 25... but that lies between normal and overweight?

That's not the point of my posts though.  We aren't arguing health of weight.  We are considered overweight actresses, just as overweight actors would be considered.

[Bohandas]

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things and also why appealing to free will, decency and common sense doesn't work in this case. Plus, for men being sexy is an escapade, for women it's a curse and a duty.

That's what I meant by "difference of opinion".

Remember the Golden Rule

That's why you shouldn't trust men to make a judgment call about these kind of things

"Trust"? "Judgement Call"!? Its a fucking comic book! They weren't exactly pressing, life or death matters even before print was dead!

It's not just a comic book, it's a corner stone in our world's oppressive culture (along with most other media). I don't think the golden rule covers cases that someone cannot grasp in the first place.

Then you would have me be a hypocrite?

I would advice against self-inflicted ad homini, they generally don't help your case all that much. As for the question, I don't think you're a hypocrit per se. Deluded perhaps, but then again, we all are.

No, I said that I would be a hypocrite if I caved in to what seems to be the prevailing opinion on this thread.

[Virex]

If you're to be called a hypocrite depends on what definition you use for equal treatment among others. As you already said, many men would not find being treated as a sex object all that troublesome, so seen from that point of view, treating both men and women as sex objects would be hypocritical because you're subjecting both to a treatment that is experienced as kinky by one and degrading by the other.

The medical definition has been heavely influenced by what society deems pretty though.

I ... find that an odd statement.

Overweight people live longer than "healthy" people, even when correcting for income and social background. So much for the medical side of that definition.

A BMI of 18.5 to 25 is considered normal.

The people who lived the longest of all were those with BMIs of 25, which lies between the ideal and overweight margins.

25 is considered normal, people who lived the longest were 25... but that lies between normal and overweight?

That's not the point of my posts though.  We aren't arguing health of weight.  We are considered overweight actresses, just as overweight actors would be considered.

25 is the top of the curve. If we were to belive the normal definition that should be 22.5.

[Leafsnail]

It's an interesting point though.  How do you define an alien as a woman?

If they look like, act like and identify as a woman I don't think it's a particularly difficult thing to define.

[kaijyuu]

I'd argue even with the "looks like" part and to some degree the "acts like" part. If they at least identify as a women, then I'd consider them well, a women. Regardless of they're an alien, a smurf, a pony, whatever.

'Course as we're discussing looks, things that look human are the only ones that really apply. If you go beyond that into characterization (in other words, the role model thing), then looking human doesn't become a factor, imo.

[Andir]

The people who lived the longest of all were those with BMIs of 25, which lies between the ideal and overweight margins.

25 is the top of the curve. If we were to belive the normal definition that should be 22.5.

Keyword: Margins.

[Leafsnail]

I'd argue even with the "looks like" part and to some degree the "acts like" part. If they at least identify as a women, then I'd consider them well, a women. Regardless of they're an alien, a smurf, a pony, whatever.

I'd agree - what I'm kindof saying is that it'd be more complicated if Starfire didn't look like or act like a woman.  But she looks and acts like a woman so it isn't complicated.

[SalmonGod]

But she looks and acts like a woman so it isn't complicated.

Or rather... used to... right?

Now she looks like an obnoxiously unrealistic ideal (with orange skin) and acts like an android with a sex drive.

Which, considering she's not supposed to be of the human species, would that be an acceptable thing if it were not antithesis to her original character?

[Andir]

If you qualify those premises though, how are you ever going to achieve equal treatment if you expect unequal definitions?  What if it was a male looking character what acted, and identified as a woman?  (or any combination of those criteria...)

What if the comic book defined Starfire as unisex or being "wasp woman shaped" with male reproductive parts?  Would people still have a problem with the untypical womanly figure?