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[scriver]

A bit late, and massively ninja'd, but still:

I suppose she wanted to say that women experience more online harassment than men, which is most likely true - I wouldn't assume differently, at least. And yeah, women probably bear something like 99% of all the because-of-gender harassment. But "Internet harassment" itself a "womens' issue"? So fucking not. I can't help but feel that this line of thinking is yet another example of "men can't be victims" mentality, and that sure isn't very progressive thinking.

Now, had she stopped as saying "harassment on the Internet is worse/more common for women then for men", I would have agreed. Now she just comes off as an insensitive, selfish arse. A prime example about why wording is important, I guess.

And I can't imagine what she thinks she or any other people will gain from making it a "womens' issue" instead of a "people's issue". Even sexual harassment. I mean, even if they are the tiniest of minorities, why deny men who have been sexually harassed (and I mean because of their gender, not by sexual means or words) their chance of being acknowledged?

[Vector]

*shrug*

Guess I shouldn't have posted it.

[Bauglir]

Disagree with that. It was worth reading, even if I don't agree with all of its conclusions. It has some really well-designed arguments illustrating the importance of online harassment to women's lives, which is far from irrelevant. Seems like pretty appropriate stuff for the thread, I dunno.

Hm. Am I arguing with the OP over what is or is not the right course for this thread to take? Oh dear.

[Vector]

Yeah, sorry.  I'm just sick, and also tired.

It's really wearing me out to feel that I can't post anything written by a female blogger without immediate backlash.

On the other hand, here's an essay by Janet Rifkin we can all enjoy disagreeing with!

[Mindmaker]

It's really wearing me out to feel that I can't post anything written by a female blogger without immediate backlash.

I hope you don't mean that in a "Women on the Internet"-sort of way...

Anyway I'm late to the party, so istead of writing a few redundant paragraphs...
What Andir and Scriver said.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

It's really wearing me out to feel that I can't post anything written by a female blogger without immediate backlash.

Respectfully, what backlash? Use of that term implies that the response has been somewhat extreme or unreasonable, which I don't see any reason to claim.

Not looking for a fight here, I'm genuinely interested in why you think there's a backlash. Maybe I'm missing something.

[kaijyuu]

I can't be arsed to read that giant essay but where I stand should be obvious.

So I'll reply to this:

It's really wearing me out to feel that I can't post anything written by a female blogger without immediate backlash.

I don't think it has anything to do with posting *female* blogs, but rather just blogs. These rants/essays are pretty much always going to have holes in them, no matter their subject or who they're written by. It's not like they're peer reviewed before publication.

So if anything, just see it as people examining what you're posting in close detail, and anything in the articles that isn't backlashed against must be pure gold

[Bauglir]

Ouch, that is a nasty combination of things to be simultaneously. Be well soon! Or now, preferably, but I'm a reasonable person and do not expect miracles to occur on your behalf, unless there's someone around here with divine powers.

Alas, I can do about as much for the backlash thing, seeing as all I can really do is and examine my own thinking more clearly to ensure that the gender of the author isn't irrelevantly coloring my posts. I don't think it has been, but more vigilance is never a bad thing, right?

I'll read that article when I return from the grocery store, although there may be Nyquil in me by then so I promise nothing in terms of understanding.

[Vector]

I mean that in a "I'm getting really tired of posting those blogs, because there's a pattern here" sort of way.


I say backlash because it seems that I can't post such an essay without the author(ess) being called selfish, unreasonable, etc.  I think a man would be called sexist or pig-headed, but I don't think that the words used would be the same, and I don't think they hold quite the same force.

They attack as if a woman could not do the same job... because they are forgiven for mistakes.  I personally feel that if men were forgiven and not expected to meet all deadlines and achieve some predetermined (self imposed) guideline you would not see (e)just such backlash.

Hmm, so if we're more forgiving of men, then women will stop being discriminated against?

[kaijyuu]

I mean that in a "I'm getting really tired of posting those blogs, because there's a pattern here" sort of way.


I say backlash because it seems that I can't post such an essay without the author(ess) being called selfish, unreasonable, etc.  I think a man would be called sexist or pig-headed, but I don't think that the words used would be the same, and I don't think they hold quite the same force.

I find "sexist" or "pig-headed" to be much stronger, myself, but that's beside the point.

Look. If you think people are being unfair to the authors, defend them! This is a discussion thread. You don't need to passively stand back when you can be participating. You think us as sexist pig heads, tell us so already instead of letting it slide

Although I also must say, I think you're... investing too much into this thread. It's your thread but imo you place too much personal responsibility in it. You're not responsible for what people say here.

So yeah, participate if you think people are being wrong, and don't bottle up frustration and take responsibility for what other people say. Loosen up a bit, eh?

[Andir]

They attack as if a woman could not do the same job... because they are forgiven for mistakes.  I personally feel that if men were forgiven and not expected to meet all deadlines and achieve some predetermined (self imposed) guideline you would not see (e)just such backlash.

Hmm, so if we're more forgiving of men, then women will stop being discriminated against?

One could only hope.

I think there's a bit of psychology involved there... men (in my observation, which as pointed out may not be universal) are expected to perform at a certain level and anything less is considered demeaning.  If you work in that sort of environment I could see where you would start to demean those that fail.  Now, I'm not saying that women fail more than men, but socially I believe it's more accepted (right or wrong) so people draw lines between those outcomes.

Also, don't beat yourself up over the postings.  In the perfect world, the blogger would consider some of the points being made here.  As I said earlier, nobody is perfect and it's human nature to look at it from only your perspective.  I didn't want it to sound like I was bashing the blogger... it's hard to be politically correct when dealing with this topic.

So yeah, participate if you think people are being wrong, and don't bottle up frustration and take responsibility for what other people say. Loosen up a bit, eh?

/agree... don't let societal pressure determine your posture.  There's room to discuss here.

[Vector]

Currently too sick to be useful, so... yup.

It kind of disturbs me that my language abilities tend to go before my math abilities.

[Mindmaker]

I say backlash because it seems that I can't post such an essay without the author(ess) being called selfish, unreasonable, etc.  I think a man would be called sexist or pig-headed, but I don't think that the words used would be the same, and I don't think they hold quite the same force.

Why not?
And I don't see why we're differentiating here. Why is the same situation worse, if there's a women on the recieving end?

[kaijyuu]

I say backlash because it seems that I can't post such an essay without the author(ess) being called selfish, unreasonable, etc.  I think a man would be called sexist or pig-headed, but I don't think that the words used would be the same, and I don't think they hold quite the same force.

Why not?
And I don't see why we're differentiating here. Why is the same situation worse, if there's a women on the recieving end?

Vector's claim is that women receive harsher criticism, not that it's worse that women receive criticism rather than men.

[sluissa]

@Bauglir Sorry, I misread the post I replied to, switch that from being a rebuttal to mostly agreement. I really shouldn't post right after I wake up.


I think there is a very grey area between wanting equality and feminism. Definitely women have a harder time of it in many situations. Definitely there are things that need to be done. However, there is a point, and in their defense, not always clear, at which feminists demand things be done to change things for their side while ignoring the fact that it's not all nice and happy for men in that situation either and in some cases, it's just as bad if not worse.

Part of them problem I think, for both sides, is that men are generally just told to deal with it. From the time they're children and on. Boys aren't supposed to cry or complain. They're supposed to stand up to bullying rather than seek protection. Men are supposed to deal with hazing as they enter a new tightly knit social group. I'm sure there are others, but I'm running out of time to do this post. In any case, on to my point. Because of these situations, men are taught to not complain, and thus you have social problems with men too, but you don't hear nearly as much of it: A: Simply because it isn't reported. and B: Because the (generally more severe) problems the other groups have tend to overshadow any that might come to light.

(I had more to put here, but I can't word it well at the moment [although if any of this is worded well, I'll be surprised] and I'm out of time. I might come back later to add it in. Sorry. Pre-edit: This hasn't taken into account any of the 4 previous replies.)

Post Edit:
I'll mostly leave it at this, since most of my points I wanted to say have been said better in later posts. I will throw in that I never meant to suggest that the author of that blog shouldn't complain about online harassment, or even mention how it can be worse for women than men. (I will say that men have it pretty bad online as well, as often as the "fag" moniker is thrown around, not even counting the more gender neutral ones.) I wouldn't mind a world where people weren't afraid to share their opinions with their own real name attach to it. I wouldn't mind a world where insults and death threats weren't the first reply people turned to when they found someone they disagreed with. I would just much rather work towards that and have that for everyone rather than for women only because some consider it a women's issue because it might be a bit worse for them.