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[Lysabild]

Feel free to give an example then

You can't judge history by todays standards, just like you can't judge the first car made to those made this year.

I'm not interested in discussing this with you because it's easy to see you're set in the belief that the past is only made of murder, rape and slavery.

I don't think anyone is doing that.


The Burakumin situation in Japan is kind of interesting.

Only thing we hear about in here is how the white man is racist, honestly :/ Which is why I say, if we want to discuss and be progressive, then please discuss reality, not a screwed image and a strawman.

This comment was slightly tounge-in-cheek.
I'm not know for patriotic or nationalistic tendencies.

But that's not all.
First attempt of a democracy in medieval times (even though only for the nobility) happened in that country, if you want a peacuful example.

Iceland?

[Bauglir]

On the other hand, the Poles have kind of gotten the short end of a lot of sticks =/

Only in recent history, though.
We have a glorious past to nostalgia about.

Glorious past as in murder, rape and slavery? I don't know one country that should be proud of it's history and being proud that your country has won a war isn't just bigoted, it's a fucking insult to the victims of war everywhere.

Oh, lord. Look, I want to be very clear that I'm comparing nobody here to Nazis, but I'm pretty glad the Allies won WW2, even if I'd be happier if it hadn't happened in the first place, and I'm not going to object to somebody being proud of that because it's insulting to the victims of the war. It isn't. I actually agree that people shouldn't take pride in their nation's actions, but apparently for different reasons*. But you're being an ass about making a point that you don't actually have to be an ass to make.

Spoiler: * (click to show/hide)

I'm not the USA, so no matter what awesome things the USA has done, I have earned no glory from them. Nor should I be ashamed for the terrible things that are in the nation's past. Now, if I actually contribute to something awesome that the USA does, then I can feel awesome for that, but it's got nothing to do with nationalism in that case. And, no, this doesn't automatically absolve anything bad that was done in the distant past, since there are still people who act on behalf of the United States and actually are obligated to deal with the shit they've inherited. But that, too, has nothing to do with nationalism.

Using that example because I'm an American, which makes it easier to write. No intent to exclude other nationalities.

[Mindmaker]

Well, I meant more on the European continent.
It was quite a bold move, considering how the surrounding countries had strict monachries. Poland didn't have the luxury of remoteness.

[ChairmanPoo]

This comment was slightly tounge-in-cheek.
I'm not know for patriotic or nationalistic tendencies.

But that's not all.
First attempt of a democracy in medieval times (even though only for the nobility) happened in that country, if you want a peacuful example.

Iceland?

Venice?

[Vector]

Only thing we hear about in here is how the white man is racist, honestly :/ Which is why I say, if we want to discuss and be progressive, then please discuss reality, not a screwed image and a strawman.

As a person who speaks English better than I speak other languages, I don't have much ability to bring in resources from other countries and easily share them here.

If you have information to put forth, please do so.  I bring what I find.

[Truean]

I'm beginning to suspect none of you ever understand what I am trying to say. Am I honestly communicating that poorly? (The answer is apparently yes, I suppose that was a rhetorical question)

Whatever, I clearly need to stop participating in this thread since I am clearly incapable of projecting my thoughts correctly. Blegh.

No, actually, this is a worldwide problem, common language or not we have no idea how to talk to each other and so we suck at it, pretty much all of us. We can hardly organize our own thoughts sometimes, how do we expect others to do so?

Also, please don't go, I like you as a friend. I like to imagine this means as an actual friend, and not some head bobbing yesman. I appreciate you arguing with me respectfully.

Problems discussing racism generally:
a.) Lots and lots of bad things happened to and from lots and lots of kinds of people
b.) We focus on the modern stuff, cause that's what is going on now
c.) Everyone gets emotional instead of logical, personalizing everything
c1.) People of the same race as the racist in the example personalize and either feel ashamed or insulted from the common logic, "if X is doing bad and I'm X as well then....
c2.) People of the same race as the oppressed get mad at the oppressor's entire race.
d.) Everyone is hurt and things blow up.

What we should do:
a.) Treat it like any other horrible act and/or crime, "because X did this now or in the past, does not mean I did this and saying X did, does not reflect upon me."
b.) Determine what is racist and if X did something in that category based upon what X knew or should've known would be perceived as racist. Same as any other bad act.
c.) Not personalize.
d.) Learn from it and avoid repeating history, while taking comfort in the fact that you never did anything like what X did.

Present example:
Unilever (in one form or another) has been doing this crap for over a century. They did it then, they're doing it now. Yes, their primary motive is to make money, but doing so by making people feel uncomfortable because of their race is horrid and wrong. There are plenty of other strategies they could use to make money that would be more effective and less controversial. While the mere making of a product in and of itself is not bad, the way they have marketed it for over a century and continue to market it, is.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/nivea-pulls-offensive-ad-185220424.html

Famous second to last words, "What? I know what I'm doing, I don't need a lawyer telling me my business."

Famous last words, "Shit, I should've had someone, like maybe a lawyer, look this over."

Would it have been racist if it were a white male throwing a head with an 80's heavy metal haircut?
If yes then I miss the point, if no then the law (read: jury/judges) is racist (for sueing only defamation of black people and not white) and not the ad. There's "taking things too far" and then there's the USA.

The answer is closer than it is too far:
The problem is, they never make that add with the white guy being dirty. All of their adds for over a century have the "dirty people" as black.... Many of them have a white person as "clean," but never a black person without reference to them being dirty.

Dating back a century, they never, have the white guy be dirty with comments like this.... Think about that.

This particular corporation has a noted history of being racist and the only thing they have done about it, is continue it....

[Virex]

Feel free to give an example then

You can't judge history by todays standards, just like you can't judge the first car made to those made this year.

I'm not interested in discussing this with you because it's easy to see you're set in the belief that the past is only made of murder, rape and slavery.

I may have used words that are stronger then I implied. What I find strange however is how someone can judge something in the present as repulsive or at most a necessary evil and at the same time approve or even celebrate it because it happened in the past. You could say that opinions were different in the past but does that mean we should treat everyhing that happened in the past according to those standards? If so, then why do people have problems with slavery or the crusades?

[Phmcw]

Around here, racism mostly takes form in the shape of jokes about other nationalities. Mostly the Portuguese and the Belgians (to be fair, the Belgians are partly being made fun of their driving practices, which are among the worst I have seen).
People seem to think it's okay, because it's not directed towards, say, the Cap Verdians or the Chinese that live here.

hu? Our driving pratices? What nationality are you? Around here we make fun of Parisians for their driving practices.

But making fun of other nationalities seems more of an harmless jokes, at least currently. No one say that ... are inferior.

[kaijyuu]

Despite having strong feelings on this subject, I'm not sure I have much to add. I'll just say this:

Prejudice is bad no matter who it's directed to or for what reason. Yes one can be prejudiced against the majority and no it's not (morally) better than being prejudiced against a minority.
Practically, however, majorities are more enabled to act out their prejudice. This is why white men have a lot of atrocities under their belt. They're no less racist/sexist/etc than anyone else, they've just had much more opportunity to act out their hate.


I'm not sure that agrees or disagrees with anyone here. The discussion seems like a long string of miscommunication so far

[Nadaka]

No, because white people do not have a history of being portrayed as beasts and animals in general.

Really depends on where and when.

Imperial japan had a huge amount of propaganda portraying us as animals and savages.

[Sheb]

True an, would it be better if Unilever made people uncomfortable about their weight, eyes color, size or anything? I think we can agree that the cosmetic industry's business model is disgusting'

[ChairmanPoo]

Around here, racism mostly takes form in the shape of jokes about other nationalities. Mostly the Portuguese and the Belgians (to be fair, the Belgians are partly being made fun of their driving practices, which are among the worst I have seen).
People seem to think it's okay, because it's not directed towards, say, the Cap Verdians or the Chinese that live here.

hu? Our driving pratices? What nationality are you? Around here we make fun of Parisians for their driving practices.

But making fun of other nationalities seems more of an harmless jokes, at least currently. No one say that ... are inferior.

That's debatable. Many (most?) stereotypes are disparaging, and spreading them could lead to discrimination towards people of the target nationalities.

Besides, you might as well argue that "afroamericans eating watermellon" jokes are harmless. But they're not. They perpetuate harmful ethnic stereotypes.

[Siquo]

The answer is closer than it is too far:
The problem is, they never make that add with the white guy being dirty. All of their adds for over a century have the "dirty people" as black....

Yeah, that makes it pretty racist. Thanks for the concise answer


Hmm, racial or country stereotypes are never positive. Or id they are, there must be some negative thing to counter that aspect. I really can't think of one that is a net positive. Can anyone?

Oh and I support everything lysabild says. Lysa for president!

[Vector]

The French are romantic and make good food?

I don't know if that's necessarily negated by their "reputation" for cowardice.

[Virex]

Hmm, racial or country stereotypes are never positive. Or id they are, there must be some negative thing to counter that aspect. I really can't think of one that is a net positive. Can anyone?

There are plenty of positive stereotypes, such that blacks are fast runner or that the Chinese are smart and hard working. They however imply that the rest lacks that quality so there's indeed always a negative prejudice associated with any positive prejudice.