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[freeformschooler]

You're a proponent of not taking a stand on difficult questions until asked of them.  Everyone believes what you believe, it's when the rubber meets the road that things get tricky, and you start having to decide what interferes with what, and what's going to win out.  That's the whole point.

How dare you impose reality on our idealistic worldviews!

But yeah, this is basically right.

[Cthulhu]

You're a proponent of not taking a stand on difficult questions until asked of them.

Daaamn straight.

[Bauglir]

You should steal if it makes you feel good. However, you shouldn't steal if it makes others feel bad. In my experience, the latter outweighs the former for a variety of reasons, but I do feel compelled to point out that there is, generally, a small positive moral incentive to commit acts that are, nevertheless, morally wrong if looked at holistically. Complexity yay. Similarly, here, the negative value of the "hardship" caused to people that find homosexuality to be icky or sinful is outweighed by the psychological wellbeing of the actual people whose lives we're talking about.

Especially since a lot of the harm a lot of people see in it can be thoroughly eroded by pointing out valid analogues in heterosexual relationships and all the arguments that are always brought up in these sorts of conversations. Theoretically, anyway. Please, don't think I'm saying that there's actual legitimate justification for the discrimination and hatred and crap. Unfortunately, ours is not an ideal world of people who are rational enough to reconsider these things, so it is often necessary to fall back on, "Suck it up, their needs outweigh your miniscule right not to be offended."

This needlessly complex way of saying, "Shit's complex, dude" brought to you by failing to actually advance the conversation meaningfully. Also by "Holy crap I need sleep, good night maybe I'll be able to convey ideas concisely in the morning. Wouldn't bet on it, though."

[Vector]

This is interesting and all, dudes, but I'd like to head away from the morality discussion and towards the delightful news articles people have been bringing.

Regrettably, I don't have the energy to do so myself right now, but I'd appreciate it if you guys tried to play along.

[Criptfeind]

Er. Right. Sorry.

At any rate.

I don't think it is even a question. Maybe if this was like in some world where you could base your hiring practices of a company on sexuality and a company switched I would say the termination of contracts might be, if not morally right, at least something that should be a option.

But come on guys. This is the military. Man up.

(I moved my post that I typed up on morally to PMs, if you don't want to talk over PMs freeformschooler that is perfectly fine with me and I understand 100%. Feel free to not even respond.)

[Cthulhu]

I'll pick up some of the slack.

I am really disappointed with all of the "states rights" bullshit that's been going around.  You get one young black President (Liberal president.  If he were a Republican this wouldn't be a problem.  One thing I've noticed is that white conservatives who aren't openly racist love a well spoken black man who agrees with them) and suddenly everybody's got it into their heads that we need another revolution.

Don't get me wrong, States have rights, but superseding federal laws (I'm looking at you, Mr. Investigate Miscarriages as Possible Murder) is not one of them.

It sucks.  A few years ago I considered myself center-right, but the American Right has totally gone off the fucking rails and it's pushed me away.  I am now finding myself, for the first time in my life outside of my brief foray into Communism (Remember how I always talk about fifteen year olds and their ridiculous political views?  Communism was mine), on the left side of the political axis.

Feels weird, man.

[Glowcat]

I am really disappointed with all of the "states rights" bullshit that's been going around.  You get one young black President (Liberal president.  If he were a Republican this wouldn't be a problem.  One thing I've noticed is that white conservatives who aren't openly racist love a well spoken black man who agrees with them) and suddenly everybody's got it into their heads that we need another revolution.

Speaking from my own experience back when I was a libertarian, the whole revolution and states-rights thing was bubbling underneath the end of Bush's last term. It took a defeated GOP and some well-funded social engineering to transform it into what we see today though.

Our reasons for turning against the right-wing seem rather similar too... after my libertarian philosophy had been torn down brick by brick I woke up to find myself in the middle of crazy land and I ran away screaming. There's a lot of bigotry hiding under its shining paint job of "Freedom".

[Ampersand]

Here's something make everyone rage. Probably not just progressivists either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Revere&action=history

The revision history for Paul Revere's wikipedia page. People have been actively attempting to edit the page to make it conform to Sarah Palin's bizarre miss-statement on Paul Revere the other day, while responsible adults, presumably, change it back. Over a dozen revisions just four hours into June 6th.

[Vector]

Off-topic.  Please relocate it to the rage thread.

[Scaraban]

As long as we understand the difference between what defines a party and what defines a person doing something legitimately wrong.

Whether or not a Republican or a Democrat has some scandal (Involving money, sex, or both) has no bearing on their class.  We're not going around saying that all Democrats are crazed sex addicts based purely on "insider information" and some mistakes that people have made, and neither are we going around saying that all Republicans are greedy sons-of-guns based on the same things (Mistakes and "inside info").  Either one would be insanely presumptuous, no matter what one's class preference, because both parties have the same "human" fallacies.  Both Republicans and Democrats have sex scandals, bad money, and a bunch of other things that result from human nature, not their party affiliation.

We also need to understand that the people who go about forcing their views and ideologies on others are wrong.  I would not condone anybody forcing someone to do anything against their will in an effort to "change" them, no matter the excuse.  I wouldn't support a school making people heterosexual as I would someone trying to make others homosexual.  They're both on the same degree of wrong.

What we need to do is realize that someone who disagrees with us is not automatically an enemy.  They simply have a differing opinion, and we should respect their opinion, whether or not we see merit in it.  Refusing to see both sides of the story will make us blind.  I'm tired of the "us versus them" mentality - It gets tiring.

If I ever find Fox News' big wig's email I will send him this, along with a youtube playlist of every bout of hypocrisy they have ever been caught with.

[mainiac]

I hate Christian persecution syndrome.  How about secularist persecution syndrome?  The Christians regularly flood the airwaves with talk about how evil we are and how we want to institute secular communist law or secular sharia law on this country.  There is a large contingent of politicians in this country with the explicitly stated goal of eliminating our say in government.  And our cultural history is being constantly undermined by people saying that famous secular historical heroes weren't secularists.  There is a well documented campaign in this country to destroy the secular way of life.  Not in the "anyone not like me is a nazi sense." but in the sense of there are influential figures in this country with the explicit agenda of forcing secularists to engage in behaviors that our contrary to our beliefs such as teaching religion in schools, obeying religious laws.  I am also unaware of anyone trying to rewrite history so the founding fathers weren't christian but there is a long standing campaign to erase the secular history of the constitution.

So boo-fucking-hoo persecuted fundies.  Get back to me when there is someone trying to erase a four hundred year old culture you are a member of.

[Gamerlord]

EDIT: taken back. not sure if it was offensive or not.

[RedKing]

I'll pick up some of the slack.

I am really disappointed with all of the "states rights" bullshit that's been going around.  You get one young black President (Liberal president.  If he were a Republican this wouldn't be a problem.  One thing I've noticed is that white conservatives who aren't openly racist love a well spoken black man who agrees with them) and suddenly everybody's got it into their heads that we need another revolution.

Don't get me wrong, States have rights, but superseding federal laws (I'm looking at you, Mr. Investigate Miscarriages as Possible Murder) is not one of them.

It sucks.  A few years ago I considered myself center-right, but the American Right has totally gone off the fucking rails and it's pushed me away.  I am now finding myself, for the first time in my life outside of my brief foray into Communism (Remember how I always talk about fifteen year olds and their ridiculous political views?  Communism was mine), on the left side of the political axis.

Feels weird, man.

The states' rights stance gets latched onto by the party out of power. Remember medical marijuana and euthanasia laws out on the West Coast? The Democrats were sudden proponents of states' rights during the Bush years, while the Republicans were left in the awkward position of defending a powerful Federal government, something they spent pretty much the entire '90s railing against. Once they were back in the short bus (2008-2010), they did an about-face in a breathtakingly short time and fell quickly back into the rhetoric of the '90s.


I'm optimistic about the whole "gays in the military" thing. It's one of the few institutions in our society where you can order someone to be outwardly tolerant. And it actually had huge effects towards racial integration. The military was integrated long before civil society, and helped provide some of the support for the civil rights movement. See, a funny thing happens when you're forced to work day in and day out with "others". Over time, you find that they're pretty much the same as you.

[Grek]

The ethics and morality discussion has been moved here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86126.0

Sorry for letting that turn into a derail.

[mainiac]

Over time, you find that they're pretty much the same as you.

Ew, breeders are gross, I dont wanna be like you.