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[Vector]

Uh-huh.  And which state, if you're okay with me asking that as well?  I'm just curious.  I don't really have the energy to educate you right now, or try, or to hold up a reasonable conversation without exploding--not your fault, it's just been a rough day.

[PsyberianHusky]

Uh-huh.  And which state, if you're okay with me asking that as well?  I'm just curious.  I don't really have the energy to educate you right now, or try, or to hold up a reasonable conversation without exploding--not your fault, it's just been a rough day.

California.

[Vector]

Ah, my state.  Alrighty, then.

[Nadaka]

Vector: I should not have dismissed the possibility. In my experience lutherans were pretty mild compared to a lot of the independant fundamentalist christain/baptists and some of the pentacostals.

Freformschooler: I probably was raging in 1 of those posts you saw in that thread, I saw red that da from a couple of posts. But they were what I believe, even if I didn't express them very well. I have a lot of things to hold against religion, both personal and founded on my ethics and reason.
In addition to the potential for evil I mentioned before, the methods used by religion often don't mesh with my ethics and point of view regarding the mind. The others here have mentioned some of them, brainwashing, indoctrination of children, etc.

 While everyone else is sharing their personal religious stories... you know how people talk about the innocence and joy of their youth? I never had that. Long story short, my father was a deacon in an IFB church/cult. He was extremely abusive and had the full and unquestioning support of the congregation. It took my mother 16 years and him committing attempted murder to get us away from him when I was 6. He never went to prison and is still a respected member of his church and community. Then there was the time a youth pastor strangled me a few years later and that is the last time I have been to a church for anything other than weddings. There is more and worse, but that is probably already to much to talk about. I was very religious as a kid and I read through the bible for a long time to prove that all that horror was wrong, but what I found supported it, encouraged it. I had to reject it completely, there was nothing left for me in faith except for fear, pain, anger and hate. I threw myself into a quest for all knowledge, not just religous meaning. It took years, but I found that morality didn't need a shaky religious foundation. It is somewhat difficult for me to articulate exactly what I believe. I am far past hate and fear but still occasionally subject to anger, pain and rightiousness. Emotion can both obfuscate and elucidate my expression. Plus I am writing this on my phone and have no spellcheck and a crappy keyboard. And I see a lot was written while I wrote this... crap.

[PsyberianHusky]

Ah, my state.  Alrighty, then.

Well to get back on topic, I am very upset that religion in this state as been used as a tool to pass prop-8.
I found it disturbing, and I realy don't know how to rationalize. Because I believe religious groups should have freedom to levy such campaigns, but I also believe LGBTs should have the same rights and freedoms of everyone else.

[ECrownofFire]

Ah, my state.  Alrighty, then.

Well to get back on topic, I am very upset that religion in this state as been used as a tool to pass prop-8.
I found it disturbing, and I realy don't know how to rationalize. Because I believe religious groups should have freedom to levy such campaigns, but I also believe LGBTs should have the same rights and freedoms of everyone else.

I think of it like this. People don't have the right to take other people's rights away. Stealing property is taking your right to own property, murder takes your right to live, etc.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Proposition 8 was a failure of the legislative system to begin with. Civil rights should never be subject to the whims of mob rule.

[PsyberianHusky]

Proposition 8 was a failure of the legislative system to begin with. Civil rights should never be subject to the whims of mob rule.

I think the best outcome is a supreme court ruling of unconstitutionality.
The problem is if the masses are not going to be my tyrant then who is?

[Vector]

Yes, that's nothing like what I experienced, though I'll add that I did experience my share of religious indoctrination from such.  My grandfather was not a total jerk and took the job of Being Good extremely seriously, though he really did have a little... something =/

Anyway, my dad baptized me in the kitchen sink when I was an infant.  I always thought that was kind of weird.


My personal belief is that sometimes it can be comforting to believe in a "higher power" or so on, and that the stories told by religion can be very helpful and relevant thought problems.  Nothing, however, gives you the right to trample on others solely for your own ends.  There are sometimes such things as necessary sacrifices, though those instances should be made as rare as possible and avoided.

Meh.

The problem is if the masses are not going to be my tyrant then who is?

That would be why we don't have a direct democracy.  The founding fathers thought the masses were too uneducated to rule themselves.  Hence electoral college, etc.

[PsyberianHusky]

But a mob of people who believes in one thing, are going to elect a person who believes in one thing the best, who can appoint people who also believe in the same manner.

Other then the power to hijack governments, I support the right for religious zealots to approach gays in public and be like "ewww cooties".

[Vector]

How about harassment, brainwashing, and violence?

They think they're doing the right thing, after all.  Protecting children.  Innocents.  From those gay = pedophiles.

[PsyberianHusky]

At the point it becomes vindictive I do not, at that point it isn't free speech, that is hate crime.

However religious picketers freeform scholar mentioned are dancing that line, I would argue the camera is violating it.

[Nadaka]

When you transition from expression of your view to interference with the lawful activities of others, it is no longer constitutionally protected.

[Leafsnail]

I've always had a very very hard time seeing "justice" as anything but a nice word for "institutionalized revenge"

It shouldn't be.  There are other very important things that can be done through justice (preventing criminals from reoffending while incarcerated, deterring other criminals, rehabilitating people) but these do sometimes get sidelined in favour of revenge.

[Phmcw]

Hmmm, the problem here is that hateful speech and distribution of someone else opinion, or opinion that may be considered hateful under some condition is not the same thing.
But before I goes on, I'd like to know one thing. In the US, or in the country where you live, is it forbidden to insult someone or to spread false and harmful information about him?