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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870570 times)

Angle

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1485 on: July 09, 2011, 08:36:55 pm »

edited for rage.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 11:13:17 pm by Angle »
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1486 on: July 09, 2011, 09:01:25 pm »

[shrugs]

I dunno. I don't claim to understand or be able to fix any of this. I only know how to fix affordable legal representation in the US or rather I would if people wouldn't screw me for doing it. lol. All I know is that I pretty much have to be with a man. The notion of me with a woman would be sad, then funny, then friends :). That would be about it. I've seen wayyyy too many gay guys shuffled into marrying some girl and then the divorce comes sooner or later, no thank you. All you can hope for then is that there are no kids....

Although I will say, I'm not entirely sure about the whole "primal/natural response." I've been hanging out with these Unitarian Universalist church people and they make an active effort to educate their kids really young about ... really almost everything. Their average 5 year old knows what gay is and couldn't care less. Their reaction to it is something like "O ok, where are the legos?" :P
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Hiiri

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1487 on: July 09, 2011, 11:04:50 pm »

Although I will say, I'm not entirely sure about the whole "primal/natural response." I've been hanging out with these Unitarian Universalist church people and they make an active effort to educate their kids really young about ... really almost everything. Their average 5 year old knows what gay is and couldn't care less. Their reaction to it is something like "O ok, where are the legos?" :P

My experience also; homophobia seems like a learned habit. Honestly, I think only time can get rid of the attitudes (10-20 years?). These changes never happen over night.

It's clear that the pro-gay movements in western world are on the winning side. Already in Scandinavia pretty much nobody has to stay inside a closet, because nobody really cares what sex you're into. And it was only 30 years ago still officially considered a sickness.
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Angle

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1488 on: July 09, 2011, 11:12:54 pm »

[shrugs]
Although I will say, I'm not entirely sure about the whole "primal/natural response." I've been hanging out with these Unitarian Universalist church people and they make an active effort to educate their kids really young about ... really almost everything. Their average 5 year old knows what gay is and couldn't care less. Their reaction to it is something like "O ok, where are the legos?" :P

I was raised Unitarian Universalist, so I can confirm that yeah, that's pretty accurate.
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Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1489 on: July 09, 2011, 11:31:13 pm »

Well, as for myself... I'm not really sure. It feels like an instinctive kneejerk, but I actually can't explain why that would be, and it certainly seems entirely reasonable that, growing up in the Midwest as I have, I picked up on the stigma without being aware of what it was. And, as far as fears go, there's been, ah, one or two incidents in my youth (involving some... uncomfortable displays of nudity, and fortunately nothing more) that, in retrospect, certainly had more to do with the fucked up background of the boy in question than actual homosexuality. Had some poor choice in friends, although I kind of lucked out relative to my brother. So... yeah. There's some stuff that might have warped my thoughts on it before I had a chance to realize what I was actually trying to figure out.

But as for now? It doesn't feel like fear, though it might be born of it. It more feels like this... intense sense of unease. The social kind; where I feel like I'm completely out of place and I really should know what to do or how to feel, but I don't and all I can think about is whether or not I'm screwing up or not. Guilt, it ends up as after a minute or two. And, as for what triggers it, it seems like it's the concept of anything happening near me, to myself or to people I know. Like I said, it's not just really sex acts, it could be as innocent as a short kiss or holding hands, and I do unfortunately have to admit that it isn't a problem with women (merciful for me, in a sense, since one of my cousins had a hard time coming out, and I know she doesn't deserve that).

But all that said? I feel like I'm being way too angsty about this. Because really, at the end of the day, I'm the one who is a part of the majority, I'm not the one who's victimized by the system, and I'm not the one who's told that I'm a worthless abomination. I've got some shit to deal with, sure, and the suffering of others doesn't automatically make it irrelevant, but I damn sure don't need to be complaining about how uncomfortable I feel when people are being hurt by that discomfort writ across society, far worse than I ever will be hurt by it. So, I apologize if this post comes off as a bit, "Poor me." Because ultimately, this isn't about me, and it's definitely not about defending bigotry.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

G-Flex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1490 on: July 10, 2011, 01:54:24 am »

Well, as for myself... I'm not really sure. It feels like an instinctive kneejerk, but I actually can't explain why that would be, and it certainly seems entirely reasonable that, growing up in the Midwest as I have, I picked up on the stigma without being aware of what it was.

That's the thing. If you live around and grew up surrounded by a pervasive social attitude, then you're liable to internalize it without even noticing.
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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1491 on: July 10, 2011, 08:35:43 am »

Although I will say, I'm not entirely sure about the whole "primal/natural response." I've been hanging out with these Unitarian Universalist church people and they make an active effort to educate their kids really young about ... really almost everything. Their average 5 year old knows what gay is and couldn't care less. Their reaction to it is something like "O ok, where are the legos?" :P
I don't know if you interpreted my post as one saying it is like that, but I want to make it clear that that is not what I think. Well, it is "natural", given the circumstances and causes that it originates from, obviously, put I did not mean to imply that it is unavoidable, hardcoded or predetermined because of our genes or anything like that. Or rather, the emotional response could be, I guess, but the homophobia itself is definitely "taught".

To clarify: If a man is homophobic, the resulting bigotry is the "natural" consequence of his feelings of disgust/uncomfortability (but of course it's not the only response individual people might have, that goes without saying). But the cause of it, the homophobia, is not inherent, and is forced upon people by culture and society. It is not a concious choice, but neither is it something inherent in people.

As for what you can do about it (besides voting progressive and talking about it with people closer around you and such), I think one important thing is to just be brave and continue showing affection in the public space. In Sweden, for example, most people (in my experience, at least) believe and think without any doubt that homosexuality is and should be treated as natural and nothing special. However, when people do get into a situation where gayness is openly displayed, however, they still get uncomfortable because the message they have been taught from childhood overrides their concious thoughts and opinions. Because it is something unusual, something they don't haven't had to deal with on a regular basis, those deep-sated "precepts" hasn't been challenged. If they aren't, it doesn't matter what a person wants to believe he believes, if he has been indoctrinated to believe something else deeper down. This also have the effect of, in this case homophobic, people claiming they definitely are not homophobic (mishomosexualic?), because how can they be? That's a bad thing! And they think nothing of the sort!
Even though their actions speaks otherwise.

My personal experiences, for example: I stopped listening to my homophobia somewhere in the years before "high school"/the gymnasium, even to the point of realising how ridiculous the "I don't care about homosexuality as long as they don't come on to me" stance is. Believing myself to have no qualms about homosexuality, I simply said "big deal, it doesn't matter" when one of my high school/gymnasium class mates came out as homosexual. And I didn't think twice about it, until said classmate brought his boyfriend to our writing class.

Until then, all encounters I had had with homosexuality was rather unpersonal and distanced from myself, so I guess that's why it didn't have much effect. However, this was a bit closer. Just seeing them together made me uncomfortable, despite everything I wanted to be. Actual displays of affection beyond holding hands was even worse. But, you know, I knew the problem was with me and not them, so I bit together and told myself it didn't matter. And, the point is (finally), over the next half year or so of seeing them together, it gradually stopped mattering to me. There was nothing special about them (which should have been obvious, I know), and I wasn't more bothered by the them than any other couples. I just needed "exposure" and time to let my old learnt-ins be worn away. And now, I am thankful that they were.

So - what I were saying was: people might stare and show aversion if you and your boyfriend show who you are, but every time you do it becomes less and less unusual for them, and a more and more natural part of their reality. It might not diminish bigotry in any profound way - haters gonna hate - but it will reduce "everyday" homophobia. So be strong, and continue to be who you are in public. After all, you have done nothing wrong, and given time, other people will realise this as well. None of us can change the overarching messages that society sends to and teaches us on our own, but we can try to show and tell other people that it is not a big deal, and changes nothing. And maybe even convince one or two.

Many excuses for the rant. I just wanted to make sure you did not think I meant to say what I bolded in the quote, and then I couldn't stop writing. I hope I have not made a fool of myself.
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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1492 on: July 10, 2011, 02:30:37 pm »

You haven't, although the thread will stall for a bit while someone thinks of something else to say.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1493 on: July 10, 2011, 05:04:36 pm »

I guess I'll just say that I figure Truean should do whatever she wants with her life, and if she wants to be public and considers herself safe doing so, then she should do that; and if she doesn't, that's her business, too.  She's not beholden to crusade change for the universe.

It's always good to hear that people can change, though.  Thanks for the story =)
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1494 on: July 10, 2011, 05:21:25 pm »

[Softly hugs Vector]

Thank you all for your honesty. I appreciate it. Unfortunately I don't think I could be open right now, but one day I'd enjoy living my life like any other girl. It's a strange fiction I suppose but there you have it. :)
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
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Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1495 on: July 10, 2011, 05:50:56 pm »

Must second Vector's sentiment, especially since I think she expressed it better than I would've.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1496 on: July 10, 2011, 09:47:35 pm »

That's understandable Bauglir. You're trying and that's what counts.

It's just weird relating to straight males, or even people in general, cause what we really need as a new sort of etiquette.

The gays need to figure out that the straight guys aren't worth hitting on due to the fact that they will never love you back, so why would you wanna.

The straight peoples need to figure out the gays should be able to show they are gay so that other gays will know who to hit on.

I'm not exactly sure how that would work in practice but meh. It's a start.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1497 on: July 10, 2011, 10:02:33 pm »

It's just weird relating to straight males, or even people in general, cause what we really need as a new sort of etiquette.

The gays need to figure out that the straight guys aren't worth hitting on due to the fact that they will never love you back, so why would you wanna.

The straight peoples need to figure out the gays should be able to show they are gay so that other gays will know who to hit on.

I'm not exactly sure how that would work in practice but meh. It's a start.

That makes a lot of sense, actually.
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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1498 on: July 10, 2011, 10:33:02 pm »

It's just weird relating to straight males, or even people in general, cause what we really need as a new sort of etiquette.

The gays need to figure out that the straight guys aren't worth hitting on due to the fact that they will never love you back, so why would you wanna.

The straight peoples need to figure out the gays should be able to show they are gay so that other gays will know who to hit on.

I'm not exactly sure how that would work in practice but meh. It's a start.

Truean, why do your posts always hurt my head, regardless of length?

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1499 on: July 10, 2011, 10:53:29 pm »

That's a... very good question, actually, although I'm wondering if you're asking the right person. Why do they hurt your head? I can't see any reason for them to be doing so. Are you commenting on her writing style, the content, or what? Because they generally seem pretty coherent to me.

EDIT: Fixed something. I'm too tired today, apparently.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 11:32:22 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.
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