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[MetalSlimeHunt]

People thrive off of social contact. We, as a species, do not like socialization, we need it in the same way we need oxygen. Going too long without it might not kill you outright, but it will eventually put you in a state where life and death are effectively equal options. Indeed, it may even go so far as to make living the option with more cons. You can't be concerned about slowly going crazy in a box if you're dead.

The longest I've gone without seeing or talking to another person is seven days. Even with all of my possessions and freedoms not granted to those in solitary confinement, I most definitely began to experience a looming change in my thought process near the end of that week. I would see things out of the corner of my eyes, and they wouldn't be there when I turned to look. Granted, that happens to most people all the time, but it was far more pronounced. One night, I found the back door unlocked and couldn't remember if I had locked it or not earlier, so I made the decision to run around my house in attack mode with a hammer in my hand as I slammed all the doors open. More than one person commented that I seemed even more strange than usual for a few days after that week. That isn't all very extreme, but it's the effect of a very comfortable week without human contact. Actual solitary confinement is orders of magnitudes worse, so it's no wonder people break down because of it.

[Truean]

http://news.yahoo.com/wa-senate-approves-bill-legalize-gay-marriage-040807187.html

[Heron TSG]

Yep, and there are the extra Republicans who waited to see how things were going to happen before sticking there necks out. At least they did what the people wanted for once. 

[G-Flex]

http://news.yahoo.com/wa-senate-approves-bill-legalize-gay-marriage-040807187.html

This quote from a republican state senator perplexes the hell out of me:

"It's ironic how a bill which purports to be about ending discrimination leaves the door open so far for discrimination going in the other direction," he said. "I'm extremely concerned that without additional protections, this legislation will create a hostile environment for those of us who believe in traditional marriage."

Because people being able to marry those of the same sex... somehow discriminates against those who want to marry those of the opposite sex? How does that work?

[Darvi]

http://news.yahoo.com/wa-senate-approves-bill-legalize-gay-marriage-040807187.html

This quote from a republican state senator perplexes the hell out of me:

"It's ironic how a bill which purports to be about ending discrimination leaves the door open so far for discrimination going in the other direction," he said. "I'm extremely concerned that without additional protections, this legislation will create a hostile environment for those of us who believe in traditional marriage."

Because people being able to marry those of the same sex... somehow discriminates against those who want to marry those of the opposite sex? How does that work?

Everybody knows that straight guys want to marry lesbians.

[SalmonGod]

I went on a reading binge about solitary confinement about half a year ago.  It was possible the most horrifying thing I've ever looked into.  It literally erases your mind.  Without stimulus, human beings simply go blank. 

There has actually been a lot of research done on this.  It's decently well understood and easy to look up.  I don't have a bunch of links saved to drop on this or anything, and I can't spend the time right now gathering them.  I urge you to go do some reading.  It's actually a huge issue.  The U.S. prison system has tens of thousands of people in long-term solitary.  A very small fraction of them are actually that bad.  Many got locked up for minor offenses and simply piss off the wrong guard.

I may be slightly off on some of these details, but here's the typical progression as I recall it in regards to solitary confinement + sensory deprivation. 

Extreme sensory deprivation actually works pretty quickly.  There have been experiments with putting people in completely black and soundproofed rooms for a couple hours to see how they come out of it.  Within minutes, a large portion of subjects sense an "evil presence" in the room with them, and are completely terrified.  Sense of time disappears really quickly.  In less than an hour, most have full-scale hallucinations.  They've also hooked up sensors and found that brain activity plummets drastically. 

Prison solitary isn't quite that extreme, but it's close.  Most people will get little things like books, tvs, writing utensils, etc to occupy themselves with, but these wear out very quickly.  There's no real activity.  The mind isn't actively engaged and it slowly shuts itself down.  People who get visitors after being in solitary for just a couple weeks are usually reported as being very slow, as if in a slight drugged stupor.  Past this point, the vast majority of people go in one of two directions.  Some just fade away.  My impression from the stuff that I read is that they are the minority.  Others get violently desperate.  For the former, the tv and books and such will not help them.  For the latter, those become implements of mischief and get taken away... which only makes the problem worse.  They become single-mindedly obsessed with causing anything to happen in any way they can, at any cost.  Even getting the guards to come in and discipline them is something actually happening to interrupt their timeless descent into cognitive broccoli.  Suicide attempts get increasingly common.

There was one study I read that followed up on people coming out of solitary, and said that not a single person who had experienced it for more than two weeks escaped without some lasting psychological damage.  People who had been in it for years required very close monitoring for a period, followed by a lifetime of therapy.

Solitary confinement was actually thrown out of the U.S. penal system in the 1880's, when a team of judges reviewed the evidence and concluded that it was cruel and unusual without producing any apparent benefit.  It wasn't put into practice again until about 100 years later, coinciding with the growth of privatization within the prison system.

Our psychology just isn't designed to handle it.  Our minds are built to constantly adapt to feedback from interaction with our environments.  It's how we construct our identities, stay sharp, and feel alive.  When you take away all stimulus for our minds to interact with and build on, they begin to simply degrade.  Please do at least a little honest reading on the subject.

[Montague]

http://news.yahoo.com/wa-senate-approves-bill-legalize-gay-marriage-040807187.html

This quote from a republican state senator perplexes the hell out of me:

"It's ironic how a bill which purports to be about ending discrimination leaves the door open so far for discrimination going in the other direction," he said. "I'm extremely concerned that without additional protections, this legislation will create a hostile environment for those of us who believe in traditional marriage."

Because people being able to marry those of the same sex... somehow discriminates against those who want to marry those of the opposite sex? How does that work?

I think he means that there were new protections granted to gay marriages that are greater then ones for traditional marriages. Like how affirmative action is an institutionalized form of "reverse-racism" that gives perferencial treatment to a specific class of person.

Without looking at what they passed, I imagine he is talking about something similar to a clause that was rejected- cake decorators and whatnot unable to refuse service for gay marriages, while no such law covers said cake decorator from refusing service to a traditional couple.

If not, I guess it discriminates against straight couples who chose not to get married? Or other non-traditional relationships from being married? They might think that if marriage is not limited to traditional couples, then whatever traditional reasoning there was for state-sponsered marriage are invalidated, then it might as well extend to any other pair or more of people who might wish to have the same legal treatment as gay marriages have now.

Anyways, on the previous topic, I think the arguments against 'white torture' are pretty lame. I admit they are probably valid enough that such treatment, especially total sensory deprivation, isn't warranted for a majority of prisoners, especially not first-time offenders. Still, I'd really insist that prisoners should never be allowed to communicate with one another, at least not privately. They can talk to vistors on the phone or something. Two or more criminals talking to each other basically constitutes conspricy and I'd say socializing with criminals is probably how most offenders lead up to them being in prison the first place.

The goal is to have a prison sentence not waste an incredible portion of a person's life (and the tax-payer's money) only to have them become even more criminally-minded then they were when they got there. They should be rehabilitated and never, ever want to do anything to come back to prison For this to work, prison must be intolerable, even for hardened individuals who actually thrive in a cut-throat place like today's US prison system. If it means they have to miserable, powerless and really bored for their entire sentence. I believe incredible boredom is probably more effective at reforming a criminal, then the brutality and humiliation that characterizes the prison system right now.

How about they can be permitted to get up on stage and recite some poetry or something for their fellow prisoners? Or a monitored group therapy session? Religious services and whatever. That'd be ok, it's human interaction while still achieving the goal of rendering the prisoner powerless.

[G-Flex]

Without looking at what they passed, I imagine he is talking about something similar to a clause that was rejected- cake decorators and whatnot unable to refuse service for gay marriages, while no such law covers said cake decorator from refusing service to a traditional couple.

I would like to see that clause, as there is a significant chance you're misinterpreting it as protecting homosexual couples specifically and not just protecting against discrimination based on orientation as a whole.

Regarding "looking at what they passed", here it is. I just read it. There's nothing about it that is remotely discriminatory toward anyone of any religion or sexual orientation. In fact, it expands the state legal code to be more accepting of the decisions of those of different religious organizations/affiliations.

Still, I'd really insist that prisoners should never be allowed to communicate with one another, at least not privately. They can talk to vistors on the phone or something.

Depriving someone, potentially for years, of any opportunity to talk to their peers except for visitors on the phone, constitutes rather cruel treatment.

Two or more criminals talking to each other basically constitutes conspricy

This is a joke, right? You really think two criminals talking to each other means they must be conspiring to commit more crimes? Really?

They should be rehabilitated and never, ever want to do anything to come back to prison For this to work, prison must be intolerable, even for hardened individuals who actually thrive in a cut-throat place like today's US prison system. If it means they have to miserable, powerless and really bored for their entire sentence.

You are not going to "rehabilitate" people by causing them severe psychiatric distress. That is completely backward and counterproductive. If you make people feel miserable, powerless, bored, and out of touch with their fellow man, they will be less likely to become inclined to be productive members of society, and less able to become so even if they want to.

I believe incredible boredom is probably more effective at reforming a criminal, then the brutality and humiliation that characterizes the prison system right now.

I doubt anyone here is going to defend the prison system as it is now, but your baseless assumption that effectively torturing them by forcing them to live in miserable, stagnant, socially-deprived conditions for extended periods of time will actually cause them to become better members of society and not worse, is just laughable. On its face, it's absurd to me that engaging in a practice as alienating and cruel as locking someone up away from other people for years in decidedly miserable conditions will somehow cause them to become rehabilitated. All that would do is alienate them from society even more, cause them to be more embittered against the system, diminish their ability to get along productively with their fellow man, exacerbate existing psychiatric problems while probably causing new ones, and completely fail to address whatever problems resulted in them landing in prison to begin with.

You do not reform people by making them feel powerless and miserable. That's how you break people. That's how you turn them into gibbering, neurotic (or even psychotic) wrecks. You're making assertions that you've apparently pulled from nowhere, that go completely against basic psychiatric principles, and that are being sufficiently argued against by everyone present. This is getting ridiculous.

[justinlee999]

Despite that Yahoo news thing about legalizing gay marriage being a good thing, I regret reading the comments.

[SalmonGod]

Some countries have experimented with prison programs aimed at making prisoners actually feel empowered.  They give them some control over the terms of conditions of their confinement, and they've had a lot more success with prison management and rehabilitation that way.  A lot of criminals are just very proud, rebellious people with a strong instinct to fight against infringements on their dignity and lifestyle.  They've found that they're much more cooperative and receptive if you just show some respect.

[Willfor]

Some countries have experimented with prison programs aimed at making prisoners actually feel empowered.  They give them some control over the terms of conditions of their confinement, and they've had a lot more success with prison management and rehabilitation that way.  A lot of criminals are just very proud, rebellious people with a strong instinct to fight against infringements on their dignity and lifestyle.  They've found that they're much more cooperative and receptive if you just show some respect.

Please back this up with linked statistics. It's not that I find it hard to believe, but that it's a rather self-serving statement. YOU are a very proud rebellious person with a strong instinct to fight against infringements on your dignity and lifestyle. The temptation to see yourself as a potential prisoner is very high. I'm against Montague's position, but you will only be able to fight it effectively if you can prove that you're not imprinting on "a lot of criminals" with your own personality, and instead can link the studies of these countries and their legal systems.

[Capntastic]

Even in a theoretical prison given an 'average' dispersal of personality tendencies, does it not make sense that giving people with hostility issues tied to those infringements would be less likely to act out if put into an environment that isn't specifically designed to eat away at their personhood, and that that specific subpopulation would be better able to rehabilitate if given that opportunity?  He's not saying all prisoners harbor that constellation of personality issues (that you, for some baffling reason, project onto him), but that it helps those that do.

It's not that much of a leap to assert that treating people like humans helps them reintegrate with humans.

Of course, linking studies is always good.

[Heron TSG]

Sweden's system seems to work fairly well, and their 'prisons' look like ski resorts.

As for the interaction, conspiracy won't happen if there is nothing to gain. Let them talk to each other, but give them no way to physically come into contact with each other or pass each other things. And by the gods, give them single rooms and private showers!

[RedKing]

Yahoo news thing, I regret reading the comments.

Fixed. Pretty much holds true in every circumstance.

[SalmonGod]

Will dig up some links tomorrow.