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[Aribar Hunter]

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[Wravburn]

There's a whole lot of self-righteousness about in this thread. Especially the attitude a lot of you have. Even after discovering that the "Eternalist" dude on that other forum has nothing to do with the developers, there is no 'backing down' or admitting mistakes.

[Capntastic]

There's a whole lot of self-righteousness about in this thread. Especially the attitude a lot of you have. Even after discovering that the "Eternalist" dude on that other forum has nothing to do with the developers, there is no 'backing down' or admitting mistakes.

You should ditch vague statements like that and specify what you're talking about.  No one's even mentioned Eternalist in this thread, or that he's simply a mod and not actually a dev.

[Toady One]

Were you contacted to give permission for the song to be used in a commercial product? If so, were royalties discussed?

If you weren't contacted, what is your opinion of their use of the chords? Do you see it as a harmless homage? Would you have preferred they obtain permission first? Would you prefer they not use it at all?

I wasn't contacted and still haven't been.  Somebody else contacted me after that sample went up asking to use the music, but they didn't say where they were from, and didn't mention having already used it, so I think it's unrelated but have no way of knowing.  Anyway, it doesn't matter if SoR is going to change their song.

There are two things that bothered me:  it bothered me that they claimed they wrote more than a third of their sample which they did not write, and that they were planning to sell it after claiming they wrote it.  Those two things were enough for me to ask them not to do it.  DF's music is not well-known enough (and is, in fact, so obscure) to think knowledge of the source can be taken for granted.  I don't particularly care about having my name or game associated with it, but it just rubbed me the wrong way that somebody else was claimed as the songwriter/composer/whatever.

[Wravburn]

You should ditch vague statements like that and specify what you're talking about.  No one's even mentioned Eternalist in this thread, or that he's simply a mod and not actually a dev.

I don't want to go into personal quote wars, so I don't. I don't need to get my right, I'm putting my opinion in the basket.

I'm expressing my opinion about the fact that there's a lot of anger in this thread. I don't like how opinions - even while they are in principle valid - seem to validate the (passive) aggressive attitude that runs through a lot of posts here. The Eternalist part was added because there were comments about their so-called evasive reactions when only he had answered.

[freeformschooler]

Thanks for chiming in Toady. It's good to hear they're changing the song, just surprising that they did all this in the first place.

As for the other posters who quoted me... Every time something like this comes up when I lurk, I always see a small handful of people go off the deep end and make a big deal out of usually minor things. Of course there's a small percentage of the ~33,000 members posting in those topics. It still creates a stereotype of "some of those guys really hate derivative work". I may be wrong, but that's how I feel about the situation, and I believe that's how some casual surfer from another forum or someone who's targeted by the hate will feel, and I dislike that. It feels like something that drives people away from the game and these forums.

And sorry about this. I hadn't read like 70% of this thread before now (or much at all after my post on the second page) but in a lot of ways you are right, people did go off the deep end for some reason. As one put it, ultimately it's Toady's opinion that matters.

Really it's an unfortunate trend, people have been getting more aggressive towards stuff lately it seems. There's a fair few casual projects "inspired by" DF that ended up receiving a lot of hate from some of our members just because they did this one thing or that. The "OMG DF RIPOFF" joke may be funny on occasion but we must remember it has its roots in reality, people just can't stand to see a game even slightly ripping off DF. And even if people agree it's not a ripoff someone will always chime in and just say how awful it is that they're stealing from Toady.

I mean, maybe they are. Maybe somehow one of these products will manage to siphon forty dollars from the monthly donation pool. That would be pretty bad, but I figure as long as people keep doing what they're doing here then a DF clone isn't going to "kill off" DF. And I really doubt any clone would be able to achieve what really keeps people playing: the intrinsic complexity.

But even with all that it's still surprising that some people reacted the way they did. I don't think Capn acted much out of line here (he is part of the "team" I guess), but then again I haven't seen his posts in that other forum, so I don't really know. It's just the small pool of people who will, time and time again, rage at anything deriving or imitating any part of DF, even when the general consensus is that it's not, really.

Honestly, I think in the end we should leave it up to Tarn. He's the man.

(Oh, and speaking of which: this work does not fall under "derivative", since it was not based on another source but rather copied from it directly)

[thvaz]

I read the thread all over again. Seriously, most of the discussion was between people thinking it was no big deal and people thinking that yes, it was really a big deal. It was mostly pretty civil, considering they didn't give the proper credits for the song or even ask for permission.

There wasn't a flood on their forums of angry Bay12 forumites either.

[freeformschooler]

I read the thread all over again. Seriously, most of the discussion was between people thinking it was no big deal and people thinking that yes, it was really a big deal. It was mostly pretty civil, considering they didn't give the proper credits for the song or even ask for permission.

There wasn't a flood on their forums of angry Bay12 forumites either.

*Most* of the angry forumites that would have eaten this up are on the upper DF-related boards. It's just a small selection down here.

[Rex_Nex]

You guys are so cute

What are you referring to?

Oh, don't worry, nothing in particular. I just think arguments or debates are fun to watch, thats all! I'm neutral on the matter, but I am glad toady chimed in

[Samio]

Ok apparently I'm wrong.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Cthulhu]

I'm usually one of the first ones to tell people to calm their asses down when they get all bothered over "ripoffs" but this wasn't like that.

[Carrion]

Furthermore, I would like to state that I don't recall anyone calling anyone dicks, but rather called their actions 'dickish' (As I in fact did call their actions).  Name-calling is silly but so is expecting that you will be able to use other people's art as your own.  Both of those things are dickish.

The conversation was civil all along until all of the backlash at the perceived name-calling and pseudo-anger.

[The Scout]

I've learned who are the smartest people here.

Toady
Capntastic
Other people

And who make their sentences sound fancy.
Capntastic
Everyone else
Toady

[Desdichado]

It's an homage, a horridly gaudy and out-of-place homage. French Rice have actually improved their game music by agreeing to remove the frankenstein-spliced clip of the DF intro from their otherwise decent, if somewhat bland, 20 seconds of intro music.

If we stop and think about this, can any of us assert that 13 seconds of "cribbed" sound would increase French Rice's revenues? No. If anything, the mix doesn't flow well, sounds terribly spliced, and will aesthetically displease those few who really do place great importance on game intro music.

Furthermore, I would like to state that I don't recall anyone calling anyone dicks, but rather called their actions 'dickish'

The conversation was civil all along until all of the backlash at the perceived name-calling and pseudo-anger.

The semantic difference between "dicks" and "dickish" is perhaps a valid point, but it is a fine nuance that easily is cast aside in a heated debate. In fact, while their actions were called dickish at first, they themselves were called dicks a few posts lower. Then it was suggested that they be punched through some drywall. But this was just pseudo-anger, right? Just civil, right?

Bottom line, there was an initial overreaction and a resulting counter-overreaction. French Rice has improved their game by planning to remove an ill-fitted homage from their title music sequence.

[Carrion]

If we stop and think about this, can any of us assert that 13 seconds of "cribbed" sound would increase French Rice's revenues? No. If anything, the mix doesn't flow well, sounds terribly spliced, and will aesthetically displease those few who really do place great importance on game intro music.

I doubt that anyone would say that having that piece of Tarn's music in their intro was a malicious or selfish act.  The problem comes in when you are talking about copyright infringement and, in turn, general disrespect (albeit unintentional) toward the copyright holder.

The semantic difference between "dicks" and "dickish" is perhaps a valid point, but it is a fine nuance that easily is cast aside in a heated debate. In fact, while their actions were called dickish at first, they themselves were called dicks a few posts lower. Then it was suggested that they be punched through some drywall. But this was just pseudo-anger, right? Just civil, right?

I assume you mean this quote...

Dicks you can handle by just punching through some drywall and going on with your life. This actually elevates it to the level of "you're dicks, and you're abusing my copyright."

For that you need drywall and a lawyer.

First of all, no one is being punched through drywall, at least not how I read it.

Second of all, it seems to me a lot like a joke, or at least an attempt at a joke.  I mean, if nenjin is serious, he's got to have some damn strong knuckles or at least the balls enough to punch a lot of walls.  I can't speak to his intentions but I would label it 'pseudo-anger,' yes.  You may not.