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[jmancube]

Remember that this is one song though, the game will probably have more. I don't want to sound like I'm defending their actions, but it seems like we are worrying too much about this. I mean, it's a thirty second sample of a song that isn't finished yet. I wouldn't exactly call that as mimicking another game... I guess we'll see whether or not they are mimicking DF as this game progresses in development.

[Max White]

Well if they are just throwing in the one song, and The Great Ones are ok with it, I'm cool with it. Just making there entire soundtrack from other games and calling it a tribute is a bit of a let down though.

[Capntastic]

Max and JMancube, I understand you're trying to give the company the benefit of the doubt.   I did too, when posting on their forum, but they seem content to dodge the issue that they stole assets.  The fact that they are using that song without giving credit (adding one line of text to the credits) , much less asking Toady permission (sending an email), pretty much destroys the idea that they're simply paying homage to something they respect.

Their site claims they've got a 'talented sound director' on staff.  At some point the person making the song decided or was told to take the first 15 seconds of the DF Menu theme and pad it out.  It wasn't an accident that they stole assets of a game they claim to respect.  As I said before, it's laziness or it's lack of self confidence.  And the fact that they won't give a straight answer and say "yeah we took the DF music", and are trying to pass off the note for note duplication as an 'homage', and trying to use the Queen/Vanilla Ice thing as precedent (even though Ice Ice Baby now cites Queen and David Bowie for writing credits, after threatened legal action), is just Frenchricegames being too afraid to admit they should've asked permission or done their own work- which is what you think a 'talented sound director' would do.

[Gabeux]

Lets keep it simple.
What the fuck is the DF song doing in those first 13 seconds?

Get that out now or I'll take your fucking brain out.



Now, seriously: wtf. That's so ridiculous and I don't see the point of using the DF music as an intro, no point at all.
If they used it on a early trailer or something, that would be ok. But they just got the song directly from DF and pasted there, and expanded it on.
I'm sorry but it simply makes no sense to use that as a in-game music. Less sense if they don't give credits.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it says "MAIN THEME sample audio". This is dumb, so dumb, for real.

[nenjin]

If Bay12Games was a nice big corp, they'd sue to get satisfaction.

But they're not, and neither are these guys. And rather than going the quarter-inch farther to ask permission before doing, they're now trying to argue they've got precedent? They're abusing the low-key atmosphere of the indie game scene at the Tarns' expense.

If this were just someone doing an indy game for fun, it would be less of a deal. But they're selling their game for money and that makes this a legal issue, one they're already doing a terrible job of handling.

[Capntastic]

Again, regardless if their game is good or not, regardless of if they have legal right or not, it's still a completely dickish thing to do.

[nenjin]

Dicks you can handle by just punching through some drywall and going on with your life. This actually elevates it to the level of "you're dicks, and you're abusing my copyright."

For that you need drywall and a lawyer.

[Gabeux]

I agree with both of you - Capntastic and nenjin - it would be so much better if they just excused themselves officially or something.
I tried producing music and stuff, and I was never that much good at it. But when I ended up with a melody sounding too much like musics I already know, I always felt ashamed of myself for copying someone else's work, EVEN if accidentally.

That's just me, but anyways, I still think they shouldn't use that music.

EDIT: I can't control myself and half of me also think they should get sued if they indeed use the song.

[Max White]

Ok, fine. I shall download alpha 7 to see exactly for myself how bad the damage is, then shall comment on any levels of douchbaggery.

[Capntastic]

Ok, fine. I shall download alpha 7 to see exactly for myself how bad the damage is, then shall comment on any levels of douchbaggery.

You seem to be missing the point.  The fact that it's attached to a game has little to do with this.  If some band or movie did the same thing they'd be dicks too.

[Max White]

Well the alpha doesn't seem to have sound at all...
Where are we getting this information that they stole the music?

EDIT: Ok, so I found the source of the controversy. There is a 33 second sample of the main theme, and the first 13 seconds is  one of the most distinctive parts from DF. The rest is new stuff. I mean in a 33 second clip, with only 13 seconds of ripped of music, I don't think this is MC Hammer stealing from Queen scale.

[Carrion]

One thing...  I don't think that you can consider that one comment on the thread I linked to earlier (that capntastic started on their forum) as them claiming that there is precedence to do something like this.  The comments in that thread certainly make me wonder about this companies intentions, but I don't imagine that it is entirely indicative of them.

I also agree that it is a dickish thing to use someone else's copy-written (I assume Tarn has it copyrighted) music without mentioning the original creator, let alone paying royalties or purchasing a license to use said music.  As has been brought up, this is between the respective companies.  In my opinion, lawyers is taking it a bit far; I would start by trying to reason with them.

[G-Flex]

Ok, fine. I shall download alpha 7 to see exactly for myself how bad the damage is, then shall comment on any levels of douchbaggery.

You seem to be missing the point.  The fact that it's attached to a game has little to do with this.  If some band or movie did the same thing they'd be dicks too.

I disagree, because context matters here. They're not just ripping off Toady's music (if that is indeed the case; I haven't had a chance to check it out yet), they're ripping it off for a competing product, for which they're making money. Stealing the theme of a game to use in some song in an album is one thing (although still pretty bad if profit is the goal), but stealing it for use in something that directly competes with said game? That's even worse.

[thvaz]

Well, the game might be inpired by DF, but it will be nothing like DF. It is more like Terraria. I don't think it will be competing with DF.

That said, it is a dick move on their part. This is the game "inspired by DF" that I had most hope of becoming a great game on its own, and now they just ripp Toady's great music.

I said this in another thread, and I will repeat it here - the indie scene disgusts me. They are making EA looking a perfectly honest and innocent company.

[Moogie]

Woah. Didn't expect the thread to take off so quickly like this.

My opinion doesn't really matter here, but since I'm the OP, I feel it would be prudent to speak a few words on it.

As with all things on the Internet, we have no idea of the backstory on the decision to use/sample the DF music. We don't know if the track is final, nor do we know if any more of the DF theme is used in the rest of the track that hasn't yet been released.

Nor do we know (to my knowledge) whether Toady/Tarn were contacted and/or permission granted to use the chords in what will eventually be a commercial product. We don't know if it was simply 'stolen' or whether royalties will be paid for its use. There's a lot of unknowns.

I do firmly believe that they should have their own distinctive theme music, though. No matter what inspired a project, it should not rely on the successes, or indeed assets, of another totally seperate project to prop it up. It needs to be successful for its own reasons; it should be memorable for its own reasons.

I'd love to hear more about this, so if nobody else has already contacted Toady for comment, I'll get on that today. A comment from French Rice Games would also be great to hear (I'm not signed up to their forums, so could someone else handle that?)

Finally, let's not knee-jerk react over it. There's no condemning evidence of foul play, just suspicions based on a very short clip. For all we know, this could all be well above-board. In that case, however, they probably should have made more of an effort to make it absolutely clear that the track is being used with full permission.

Interesting discussion so far though, let's see where this goes.