Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc  (Read 2969 times)

Astral

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ENTER_TENTACLES:RIBCAGE]
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2011, 03:41:57 pm »

I've personally done martial arts for about ten years in total. It started out at an early age; I did karate for physical activity at a recreation center, and to help give me a bit of discipline and focus, as well as the obvious self defense aspect (I had some bully problems at the time, but nothing ever came of it).

It ended up as much more than that. I trained with our branch of the organizations' leader himself for a good five of those ten years. It went from being an activity to a lifestyle, being focused and aware, and being driven. That was something I had been missing from my life at the time; motivation never came easily to me, and classes were a snoozefest of easy grades, so I had something to channel my energy into. During those ten years, I also (near the end) took approximately 3 years of kendo, 1 of jujutsu, 2 of judo, and dabbled in aikido and iaido. This went in upwards of five days a week after school, even on weekends, usually for an hour or two at a time; needless to say my social life suffered as I was often exhausted afterward. But it was worth it, in a way. I do feel like I became a "better" person (as in, despite knowing I could probably kick someone's ass without a hitch, I never got into a fight at school; self discipline is a lovely thing when you're a smartass) and knowing multiple styles had its own practical applications. I always joked that I could become a bodyguard or bouncer if college didn't work out.

As I got more involved, I became a part of the "youth group." Pretty much a bunch of kids, trained under his direct supervision, more or less designed to be the elite representatives. He tempered our physical training with stories and anecdotes; the man was like Mr. Miagi in a way. The Qi "shield" as mentioned in an above post was a fairly prevalent story as told to us by our teacher. I was interested in the fact that he said many of the masters used such a field to repel insects; their disciples were bug ridden by mosquitoes but the masters got away untouched. It's interesting to think that even across different cultures that some things remain the same, and all this may point to some form of lost art to being a bug zapper, or something much deeper. Mind, body and spirit; blood, sweat and tears. These were concepts not tossed around casually, and the average age of our group at the time was probably around 15-17. It was a lot to take in at that age, but an open mind is a good thing.

It all culminated in being on a trip to Japan with eleven others, one of whom was my sister, where we represented our branch of the organization with demonstrations and got to experience what was practically a whole other world. This is from someone who had, until that point, not even left the eastern coast, and ends up halfway around the world.

I ended up ceasing these activities around the time I finished high school. I went with it for a little bit during college, as they had credits for taking it there (and one of the higher-ups in the organization usually taught there as well) but it didn't have quite the same impact and I just wanted out. I had a hard time balancing social obligations, college, work and martial arts at the same time, and the easiest to drop was obvious at the time.

Old habits die hard anyway. After a two year hiatus, I'm back in a much more limited fashion with judo, more as a form of exercise than anything. Plus, it's a helluva lot of fun to be tossing people while remembering things I thought I had forgot. It's all in the muscle memory, regardless of whether I remembered the terminology or not. Great stress relief after a long day at work too.
Logged
What Darwin was too polite to say, my friends, is that we came to rule the Earth not because we were the smartest, or even the meanest, but because we have always been the craziest, most murderous motherfuckers in the jungle. -Stephen King's Cell
It's viable to keep a dead rabbit in the glove compartment to take a drink every now and then.

counting

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zenist
    • View Profile
    • Crazy Zenist Hospital
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 03:44:34 pm »

Most fights quickly turn into "just hit the other guy before he hits you". Most fighting "styles" are impractical. Who's gonna stand there while you set up one of these long-winded, but cool looking moves? You know the ones I mean.

You win a fight by being stronger, faster, tougher, and smarter than your opponent, not by learning a magical martial arts technique. Or maybe I'm just tired of the over glorified asian fighting styles.

That's a different martial art philosophy, and on the opposite side with Taiji. It's not 'styles' matters in any kind of martial art, they are for the purpose of training students to remember the movements in their muscle memory. What's really like is when you have learned and practice long enough, you are naturally as one as the Qi, so in any moment you are set and ready in every movement. And you can move extremely fast through these hard training. And when you do remember these by heart, you will 'forget' your are actually using them, like your can learn to walk, but never thought about it.

The philosophy in many Kong Fu, focus on the idea of using tricks, and deflect the energy of your enemy, (四兩撥千斤). And watching close to the movements of your opponents, and when they moves you will move to the best position to intersect or avoid their movement's trajectory with least effort way, thus faster than your opponent. Since you move with less energy, and to a specific point, you should be faster. And that's what 'style' and 'positions' are for, they are collected knowledge of what kind of movements is most effective as sets. And if the opponents are hitting hard, They can't stop their fists and kicks, and easily tripped, or using thier psychology of afraid being miss, (if you hit hard and fast, but miss its bad than not hitting at all, most will redirect or just fall over), and make those force backfire, or just make the opponents tired, hence show their weakness.

There is no such thing as setting up long-winded thing, that's what people always saw when people are practice the Taiji art of Qi, not martial art. They use the basic forms, but not for fighting (I can't translate with better word 勁). And it's hard to learn the Taiji Chuan as martial art, and most teachers don't want to teach students who only want to make money out of it, or learning it for the sole purpose of fighting others. Its against the basic believe of Taiji. Its for people who are weaker than their opponents to defend themselves. Its pursuit for peace,not provoke, and harm others. There are other kinds of Kong Fu for that purpose.

If you are searching for your philosophy of hit hard and quick. Taiji is not for you. You can find many other form of Kong Fu, that actually focus on physical force.(外功, 硬功). The idea of economic energy using also fairly common in recent Kong Fu sects (Their derived from the old one), even they are focus on external form only. Principles are the basic and the same, but different roads take to different results.

P.S. Kong Fu is nothing like what you saw in movies, not even Hong Kong movies, that's just for show. It need to be pretty. (Many martial art competitions as well, for the purpose of sports). And one of the reason why many traditional martial art masters don't like JKD, since it contains too much commercial aspects in it. And lack of a central philosophy other than just fighting, fighting for fighting sake is just violent. But still this is just the philosophy of the east. No one said its better or worst, just different.

I think the point of martial arts isn't to "win" a fight - It's to discipline yourself.  There's different styles and philosophies, but all of them point towards mastering your mind, spirit, and body rather than domination.  From what I understand, Asian culture is more about the capability of their own self than Western culture - Eastern culture tends to see weapons or fighting styles as an extension of body or will, while Western culture focuses on the style or weapon as a tool to further one's will.

So, combat has some part in Martial Arts, but a fight is more of an opportunity to improve oneself rather than just come out on top.  If martial arts were really all about winning, then it would have devolved into a gun competition a long time ago.

We often say to become one with one's weapon and tool. It's the user that matter. And there are Taiji sword, Taiji rod, Taiji blade, in all forms. (But I never heard a Taiji gun  ;D). Archery is in fact quite important in traditional fighting and warfare. But after 15 century, many reasons causing the lack of technology development in gun powder weaponry, probably has something to do with the last dynasty started as using horse archers and heavy cavalry effectively do defeat the previous one. And never catch up with the new era.

Wining is also important in martial art really, we got a saying 文無第一, 武無第二, basically means one can lose of the battle of debates, but no one want to lose the battle of fighting. Still it's more of a defense purpose mostly, since it started as a means to fight the government (綠林), and farmers / monks are usually poor armors and weapons than soldiers. Over time it becomes even less aggressive when fight is no longer about human muscles.

Old habits die hard anyway. After a two year hiatus, I'm back in a much more limited fashion with judo, more as a form of exercise than anything. Plus, it's a helluva lot of fun to be tossing people while remembering things I thought I had forgot. It's all in the muscle memory, regardless of whether I remembered the terminology or not. Great stress relief after a long day at work too.

Muscle memory thing, that's good to heard someone also mention it. And I think my early training as a kid, help to learn Taiji faster, but in a way also interfere a bit. I need to practice a bit of the old, and than back to Taiji again. And some who I forgot some of the old style I have, when I practice the old form. And teachers always said they can see my old training during learning Taiji form.

Hopefully you can keep up the daily practice. (I know its hard when you are busy working, or married, had kids). Just keep a habit of it, best every morning. (I like morning than night, but if both are available time, I choose the early, night time is for my meditation  8))

P.S Good angle head logo, I am really waiting to see who doctor Song is, and no spoiler  :-*)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 04:13:56 pm by counting »
Logged
Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

counting

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zenist
    • View Profile
    • Crazy Zenist Hospital
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 03:56:31 pm »

How do I delete the old one, after combining the posts ? I didn't see delete. Or you can't after someone replies.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 04:24:43 pm by counting »
Logged
Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

sonerohi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2011, 04:02:40 pm »

Most fights quickly turn into "just hit the other guy before he hits you". Most fighting "styles" are impractical. Who's gonna stand there while you set up one of these long-winded, but cool looking moves? You know the ones I mean.

You win a fight by being stronger, faster, tougher, and smarter than your opponent, not by learning a magical martial arts technique. Or maybe I'm just tired of the over glorified asian fighting styles.

No one uses the long-winded flashy moves in a real fight. Those sorts of moves are taught, not for the value of the move, but for the skills that enable the move. We don't do spinning aerial kicks because of how frequently we need to kick someone's head. We do it to master ourselves, to set a metric of our self-control and skill. In a real fight, you rarely see someone use more than the most basic set of moves. I had to be able to do spinning aerial crescent kicks from one side of the mat to the other for my green belt. To manage myself in a fight, I had to be able to throw jabs and some low kicks, and keep my feet under me.
Logged
I picked up the stone and carved my name into the wind.

de5me7

  • Bay Watcher
  • urban spaceman
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2011, 04:18:10 pm »

Most fights quickly turn into "just hit the other guy before he hits you". Most fighting "styles" are impractical. Who's gonna stand there while you set up one of these long-winded, but cool looking moves? You know the ones I mean.

You win a fight by being stronger, faster, tougher, and smarter than your opponent, not by learning a magical martial arts technique. Or maybe I'm just tired of the over glorified asian fighting styles.

defeat action with in-action this is the Tao (or summit like that in the Tao te Ching)

you can strike as strong and as fast as you like but its useless if you do not hit them

you can be as tough as you like, but if your opponent connects his two fingers to your eye sockets at even a modest speed you wont live long.

Being smarter is useful, but you cannot guarantee you a smarter than someone simply because you don't understand their art.
Logged
I haven't been able to get any vomit this release. Not any I can pick up, at any rate.
Swans, too. Swans are complete bastards.

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2011, 04:55:07 pm »

I had not considered the muscle memory thing. With that in mind, I suppose it has some merit. It's still overglorified over here, though.

By smarter I meant being able to pick out opportunities in the fight. Finger poke in the eyes, better mental reaction time, being able to think ahead better, etc were meant to be included.

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2011, 05:10:56 pm »

Most fights quickly turn into "just hit the other guy before he hits you". Most fighting "styles" are impractical. Who's gonna stand there while you set up one of these long-winded, but cool looking moves? You know the ones I mean.

You win a fight by being stronger, faster, tougher, and smarter than your opponent, not by learning a magical martial arts technique. Or maybe I'm just tired of the over glorified asian fighting styles.

It's all false. I'm still telling the story of the time I wrestled with my judo teacher. I'm tall, big and heavy. 2 meter for a bit more than 100kg. I had no trouble to beat anyone who didn't have a brown belt or better, but the day I trained with him, I learned how hopeless you are in front of a master, no matter if he's way smaller, older and weaker than you.
Muscle memory is important, but knowing all weak-points of the human body, being able to read the movement of your adversary, or even knowing how to land a punch properly are invaluable in hand to hand combat.
Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2011, 05:27:28 pm »

Most fights quickly turn into "just hit the other guy before he hits you". Most fighting "styles" are impractical. Who's gonna stand there while you set up one of these long-winded, but cool looking moves? You know the ones I mean.

You win a fight by being stronger, faster, tougher, and smarter than your opponent, not by learning a magical martial arts technique. Or maybe I'm just tired of the over glorified asian fighting styles.

It's all false. I'm still telling the story of the time I wrestled with my judo teacher. I'm tall, big and heavy. 2 meter for a bit more than 100kg. I had no trouble to beat anyone who didn't have a brown belt or better, but the day I trained with him, I learned how hopeless you are in front of a master, no matter if he's way smaller, older and weaker than you.
Muscle memory is important, but knowing all weak-points of the human body, being able to read the movement of your adversary, or even knowing how to land a punch properly are invaluable in hand to hand combat.

That is the "smarter" aspect I mentioned. Knowing weak points isn't tied to a particular style, but comes with knowledge in general.

MaximumZero

  • Bay Watcher
  • Stare into the abyss.
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2011, 10:17:42 pm »

Nidan - Koga Ryu Ninjutsu
Yellow Glove (Instructor) - Savate/Kickboxing
Instructor - Muay Thai
1 yr Kendo, 1 yr Iaido, dabbling in a few dozen schools.

I do it for discipline. For structure. Mostly, though, I started at 13 to stop getting into trouble.
Logged
  
Holy crap, why did I not start watching One Punch Man earlier? This is the best thing.
probably figured an autobiography wouldn't be interesting

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2011, 11:16:52 am »

That is the "smarter" aspect I mentioned. Knowing weak points isn't tied to a particular style, but comes with knowledge in general.

I'm not sure what you meant then. What I meant that  training in a martial art will make you more effective in combat by teaching you betters way too fight. What did you mean?
Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2011, 01:34:57 pm »

That is the "smarter" aspect I mentioned. Knowing weak points isn't tied to a particular style, but comes with knowledge in general.

I'm not sure what you meant then. What I meant that  training in a martial art will make you more effective in combat by teaching you betters way too fight. What did you mean?

I was going off the idea that martial arts training wasn't really about learning how to "fight" better, but that it was more muscle memory and physical training. The style is mostly irrelevant, because the "moves" are very situational. When I said "smart", I meant being able to process the information more quickly during the fight, being able to predict and read your opponents movements and respond with the most effective action, which is more than likely going to be some sort of improvised or opportunistic attack.

counting

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zenist
    • View Profile
    • Crazy Zenist Hospital
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2011, 01:59:50 pm »

That is the "smarter" aspect I mentioned. Knowing weak points isn't tied to a particular style, but comes with knowledge in general.

I'm not sure what you meant then. What I meant that  training in a martial art will make you more effective in combat by teaching you betters way too fight. What did you mean?

I was going off the idea that martial arts training wasn't really about learning how to "fight" better, but that it was more muscle memory and physical training. The style is mostly irrelevant, because the "moves" are very situational. When I said "smart", I meant being able to process the information more quickly during the fight, being able to predict and read your opponents movements and respond with the most effective action, which is more than likely going to be some sort of improvised or opportunistic attack.

One of my personal feeling about 'moves' is that sometimes you don't have time to "consider" a situation. But reflectively act, by associating different scenarios, and making those combination 'moves'. Like you don't think, but instinctively act (martial art isn't just exercise the body, but the mind as well). Part of it is in the body (cerebellum brain to be exact), but some are actually new thoughts process in your brain. It makes you think faster, and react to it faster. Like when you are very concentrate, the time slows down. We called it using Gong 運功, and start a trend 起勢, and you will feel differently. And the masters are those who can easily set in a trend, or grand masters who are always in the trend. I don't know everyone else has this kind of feeling or terminology in their martial art.
Logged
Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

Phmcw

  • Bay Watcher
  • Damn max 500 characters
    • View Profile
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2011, 02:12:39 pm »


I was going off the idea that martial arts training wasn't really about learning how to "fight" better, but that it was more muscle memory and physical training. The style is mostly irrelevant, because the "moves" are very situational. When I said "smart", I meant being able to process the information more quickly during the fight, being able to predict and read your opponents movements and respond with the most effective action, which is more than likely going to be some sort of improvised or opportunistic attack.

Depend on which martial art you're speaking about, but no, most of the case you use one of the moves you have learned. Most move in karate aren't that situational, and are mostly an improved way to make the moves you'd do anyway (a lot of different kind of punch, a lot of kick, and a lot of way to block an attack). In judo, you do the moves you've learned, and that's usually pretty different of what you'd do naturally. And in Aikido, you use the enemy's moves against himself, but that's damn hard.

The trick is that the moves must come naturally for the right situation, usually triggered by reflexes, as you don't have the time to think.

But if the martial artist isn't good, then you're right, he will usually make one or two good moves and then fight normally. If he's a master, he will only use his art, and it's damn efficient.
Logged
Quote from: toady

In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

counting

  • Bay Watcher
  • Zenist
    • View Profile
    • Crazy Zenist Hospital
Re: Martial Arts / Martial Arts Philosophy / etc
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2011, 03:59:48 pm »


Depend on which martial art you're speaking about, but no, most of the case you use one of the moves you have learned. Most move in karate aren't that situational, and are mostly an improved way to make the moves you'd do anyway (a lot of different kind of punch, a lot of kick, and a lot of way to block an attack). In judo, you do the moves you've learned, and that's usually pretty different of what you'd do naturally. And in Aikido, you use the enemy's moves against himself, but that's damn hard.

The trick is that the moves must come naturally for the right situation, usually triggered by reflexes, as you don't have the time to think.

But if the martial artist isn't good, then you're right, he will usually make one or two good moves and then fight normally. If he's a master, he will only use his art, and it's damn efficient.

I remember clearly as a kid, master always told me just practice those damn hard moves (some are unnatural moves as you said), and don't think about them, I will understand them later. And I always thought its simple as actions and reflexes. But later when advanced enough master told us the "tricks" in the art. And that's the really hard part. And the exercise of the body, became the exercise of the mind. And the tricks are not about the details of how to apply which moves to what, the combination is just too many to think about, but rather mostly simple ones. Like intentionally deconstruct the moves, and make you think the moves I learned. After that, when did those moves again, I noticed the difference of each move, and each move made sense. And once them did, it became more naturally not just because I am familiar with them. (Beginner felt the need to memorize the moves by name, later you just know it, they now make sense and easy). I guess its only middle steps toward true master, and the exercise of the brain just began, but I did come to some of my own conclusions about how they may be more sensible to me. But I hadn't got the time to test them all one by one. Perhaps that why after some time we all want to teach, not just because we like to be master, but as testing your thoughts on that. And I really don't think I am able to make every move that efficient. I guess its only efficient to master himself. And his tricks are as helpful as it can get, the rest are up to how many works I put on myself. (And so many haven't learned from him, *sigh*, and as I practice Taiji now, I got new masters, not the one taught me Shaolin sects in the past.)
Logged
Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth
Pages: 1 [2]