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[Befenismor]

You do realise that you support de-humanisation, right? it's natural for women to work in the kitchen and men in the mines, I don't see why it should be different in a realistic RLhuman-based world such as DF. and.. communist? dwarves are monarchists...

[G-Flex]

I find it interesting that this has become at all controversial. I doubt that Befenismor was making any intentional slights against women.

Balking at the concept of women doing certain jobs while acting as if men are capable of all jobs certainly sounds like a slight against women to me.
and who said he didn't have a right to?

I doubt we'll change his mind as to whether or not there should be, oh say, female engineers. =)

Maybe not, but since when is it not controversial to say "there shouldn't be female engineers"?

You do realise that you support de-humanisation, right? it's natural for women to work in the kitchen and men in the mines, I don't see why it should be different in a realistic RLhuman-based world such as DF. and.. communist? dwarves are monarchists...

See, here the truth comes out; he believes that it simply isn't natural for a woman to work with manual labor or a man to work in a kitchen, and that acting otherwise is "dehumanizing". This would be controversial enough, but is quite a bit sillier since we're talking about dwarves for crying out loud, whose physical sexes probably don't differ much to begin with.

[Befenismor]

Women are capable of manual labour, but certainly not in the mines. Even in this day and age if you visit a mine there will be no female there. I guarantee it. Men are simply more suitable for the job. Why would you hire a female miner when females are physically inferior? Engineering is different, though.. not sure why it's considered a man's job.
Cooking is a unisex job and I never said otherwise, but mining, masonry, carpentry, smithing are all obviously male jobs. And that's what a fortress is all about, right?

Maybe dwarves lack basic tribalism? Dunno, but it's my game and I'll mod it however I want. You can make an all female fortress for all I care. You'd love that since you're obviously a feminist, defending women's rights so ferociously. Or maybe you're trying to impress the ladies?

[FrisianDude]

Women are capable of manual labour, but certainly not in the mines. Even in this day and age if you visit a mine there will be no female there. I guarantee it. Men are simply more suitable for the job. Why would you hire a female miner when females are physically inferior?

  Because not every man is physically superior to every woman? If you have a bunch of people of either sex and you need the strongest ones then the logical thing would be to select the strongest ones, not select the men because men are on average are stronger than women. If it so happens that the strongest are all men, then you select those. If it so happens a few of the strongest are women, you'd be mad to take only men.

[Befenismor]

That is correct, but no physically fit female will go to work in the mines. Do you know how long it takes for a female to reach the average man's physical strength? There must be another reason why there are no female miners, besides gender role and tradition.

[Number4]

Dwarves aren't humans. I like the fact that not every civilization is sexist and it should stay that way. Only thing that needs fixing is the women giving birth in strange ways.

BTW: Dwarven women are almost unknown in every fantasy world I know - why?

[Ultimuh]

Dwarves aren't humans. I like the fact that not every civilization is sexist and it should stay that way. Only thing that needs fixing is the women giving birth in strange ways.

BTW: Dwarven women are almost unknown in every fantasy world I know - why?

Because in most fantasy, Dwarven women have beards. Seen from a human perspective, this makes dwarven women non-existant.

[Befenismor]

Dwarves aren't humans. I like the fact that not every civilization is sexist and it should stay that way. Only thing that needs fixing is the women giving birth in strange ways.

BTW: Dwarven women are almost unknown in every fantasy world I know - why?

Because of strong gender roles and tradition. Modern fantasy dwarves are actually based on the prussians.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

well, to be fair, the lack of sexism in df is a bit unrealistic. i think i'm not to far off when i say that no human culture that ever existed had strictly egalitarian roles, nature itself has clearly defined some gender roles, like who carries the fetus in their belly or who breastfeeds the infant
not that this is an excuse for the op's clear bias, though, women are not physically *inferior*, and even the physical differences that exist are not as dramatic as the op wants to believe.
masonry, carpentry and metal smithing are not based purely on strength either, and even mining has more to it than simply swinging a pick; the crafting labors mentioned before require sensibilities and finesse to create quality items, much more that strength, and in df, mining is more than breaking away rock, it's about extracting a usable stone or ore, which is dependent on skill alone and not on the strength of the miner

[Eleas]

That is correct, but no physically fit female will go to work in the mines. Do you know how long it takes for a female to reach the average man's physical strength? There must be another reason why there are no female miners, besides gender role and tradition.

I'm curious. Why would you claim there are no female miners? This page would seem to conclusively disprove it.

As for how long it takes for "a female" to reach the average man's strength, that's a strange claim as well, given the numerous examples of women who are naturally that strong since puberty, and many others who have gained it through an active lifestyle or physical labor.


You can easily have an all-male fortress, though. Just posit a religious reason, and you're set. What you'd have is essentially a monastery. Alternatively, you could design it around the concept of Frank Miller's 300, and assign your various dwarves to labors like sparring, formation training, full-body waxing and lingering hugs.

[FrisianDude]

Alternatively, you could design it around the concept of Frank Miller's 300, and assign your various dwarves to labors like sparring, formation training, full-body waxing and lingering hugs.

Nice one.

[Number4]

Because of strong gender roles and tradition. Modern fantasy dwarves are actually based on the prussians.

What - the bloody prussians? Think it's time for elf fortress and a dwarf-cleansing campaign

And men, ARE, ON AVERAGE, physically stronger of course. Still a strong female could be a good miner while a weak male should rather go milking animals instead. Even then we're not having capitalism in our forts, therefore no need for real discrimination against anyone and anything. Oh and even a weak female, given talent in mining would have her uses: You don't cae how long someone mines the star sapphire tile, what you care about is that you get the gem in one whole piece.

[Triaxx2]

Weak female? Assign her to the pump Gym and soon she'll be out mining the guys.

[Skelephant]

I'm not really seeing the Prussian connection... I mean, when's the last time you heard a dwarf with an even vaguely Germanic accent (not to say that Prussian accent=German accent, of course, but the reality is that most people can't tell the difference)? On the other hand, I love the idea of dwarves in picklehauben...

[also: while men tend to have higher upper body strength than women, women have several attributes that could be useful in mining as well, like higher pain tolerance.]

[Befenismor]

I'm not really seeing the Prussian connection... I mean, when's the last time you heard a dwarf with an even vaguely Germanic accent (not to say that Prussian accent=German accent, of course, but the reality is that most people can't tell the difference)? On the other hand, I love the idea of dwarves in picklehauben...

[also: while men tend to have higher upper body strength than women, women have several attributes that could be useful in mining as well, like higher pain tolerance.]

LOLWUT it was proven a long time ago that females are much less tolerant towards pain.