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Author Topic: Patriot Act extended  (Read 5613 times)

Lagslayer

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2011, 12:49:35 pm »

First thing first, I do not believe privacy is a right given in the constitution, but that it is a byproduct of the interaction  between different parts of the constitution and other laws. The constitution specifically guards against search and seizure of private property without a warrant. The "search" of private property is only enforceable to the point of them having to come onto your property to do so. If they can see what you are doing without being on your property, then what is to be done? Just forbid them from looking in that direction? The "seizure" of private property, however, is very clear. They cannot take your stuff without a warrant.

The patriot act still requires a warrant for any of the evidence gained directly from the tap to be admissible in court. Is it paranoid? Perhaps. Is it effective? Quite frequently, yes. Are the wire taps that don't get used in court, but also don't have a warrant unconstitutional? Only if they have to come onto or mess with private property to do so. I'm not saying privacy is not important, but that is very difficult or nigh impossible to protect and still do the things that need to be done.

I'm not against the Patriot act, and, in fact, support most of it. However, I am wary of it because it has a lot of potential for abuse.

Levi

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2011, 01:00:22 pm »

Look at the upside, this will probably result in people using better encryption technologies and more communication through the internet rather than than those unsecure phonelines.  :D
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Bauglir

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2011, 01:04:36 pm »

Question. If intellectual property laws get pushed further to the point where the term is actually enshrined as a legal concept, would it not be possible to circumvent this by prefacing all conversations with the phrase, "This conversation is copyrighted by <Name participants here>, all rights reserved" with possibly some more stuff added on? Then pointing out that since the conversation is your property, wiretapping and so forth is a violation of the 4th amendment?

This is a silly idea, I know, but I feel it needs to be asked, if only to lighten the mood somewhat.
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“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Nadaka

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2011, 01:16:37 pm »

You may be mistaken about what constitutes "property". Your property includes you, your land, your car, your personal affects, your papers (even if held by a third party in transit). Digital records are the new "papers". They do not cease to be your property because they lack a physical manifestation.

The potential for abuse alone is more than enough to rabidly oppose the PATRIOT act. The fact that it violates the 4th amendment alone is more than enough to rabidly oppose the PATRIOT act. The powers granted to the government and restrictions placed on the people alone warrant rabid opposition to the PATRIOT act. The security theater at airports enabled by it is alone worthy of rabid opposition.

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2011, 01:23:31 pm »

I don't get what's the fuss over this is? Over here in Holland, there are if I recall correctly ten times as much phone taps per 1000 persons as in the US and they're going to keep everyone's fingerprints in a nation-wide database as well (and I think keeping everyone's DNA is planned as well) and it's not like things are turning into a police state over here either (Quite the opposite actually, the government is losing ground to the mafia if the papers are anything to go by)
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Nadaka

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2011, 01:33:29 pm »

I don't get what's the fuss over this is? Over here in Holland, there are if I recall correctly ten times as much phone taps per 1000 persons as in the US and they're going to keep everyone's fingerprints in a nation-wide database as well (and I think keeping everyone's DNA is planned as well) and it's not like things are turning into a police state over here either (Quite the opposite actually, the government is losing ground to the mafia if the papers are anything to go by)

The fuss is that it violates the fundamental tenets of liberty on which this nation is founded. That we ARE turning into a police state. And that 100% of our electronic communications, including all voice phone calls can be and ARE being "tapped" to some extent (monitored for key words and phrases, positive matches are flagged and reviewed more carefully). Not only for its violations, but because the name itself is a shallow masquerade and a slap in the face to people who really are American Patriots.
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2011, 01:37:24 pm »

Yeah, it's all politics. Say, if any terrorist attack occurs and they didn't pass the Patriot Act, every politician is fucked. Not just Obama, ALL of congress.

Basically, only the Judicial branch can politically call out the Patriot Act as Unconstitutional, and well... hahahah, good luck with that.

As mentioned earlier, don't act like you're surprised the government wasn't spying on you before they made it "legal".

Sergius

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2011, 01:48:51 pm »

I'm not against the Patriot act, and, in fact, support most of it. However, I am wary of it because it has a lot of potential for abuse.

What do you mean "potential"?

Senators Reveal That Feds Have Secretly Reinterpreted The PATRIOT Act

Basically, the Act says one thing, but the Feds interpret it as giving them freedom to do whatever they please (oh and this "official" meaning is secret and classified).
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Lagslayer

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2011, 02:24:52 pm »

I'm not against the Patriot act, and, in fact, support most of it. However, I am wary of it because it has a lot of potential for abuse.

What do you mean "potential"?

Senators Reveal That Feds Have Secretly Reinterpreted The PATRIOT Act

Basically, the Act says one thing, but the Feds interpret it as giving them freedom to do whatever they please (oh and this "official" meaning is secret and classified).

That's part of the potential I'm talking about. That some would use it as an excuse to do pretty much anything. I was not aware of this particular incident, however.

That being said... again, A lot of the extra surveilance is important, but how do we keep them from abusing it so badly?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 02:26:33 pm by Lagslayer »
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Strife26

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2011, 02:33:37 pm »

The same way that we stopped the CIA from doing whatever the hell they wanted during McCarthyism?
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nenjin

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2011, 02:36:23 pm »

The same way we stopped the CIA from doing whatever the hell they wanted during [insert American political scandal].

Really, anything like the Patriot Act deserves more procedural safeguards purely on the basis of history alone. Oh, but that inhibits their ability to timely intelligence. That they may or may not seek court approval for anyways.
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Melagius

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2011, 02:42:36 pm »

Funny thing is the American government can do whatever the hell they want and people will just blame everything on the party they don't like instead of realizing the government as a whole is constantly abusing the people and sooner or later we'll need a violent protest against the government. The problem is nobody really knows what's a better alternative. The constitution is an amazingly strong document and makes for a good government, but there are still flaws in the system. The major flaw, in my opinion, is that America is no longer a democracy representative of the people, and has become a corporatist state. Major financial groups, corporations, and other interest groups hold all real political power in this country due to our flawed electoral process. I like how it works in the UK, where elections are called after a vote of no-confidence or every 5 years with only 17 days before the vote. This would make money a much less important thing in the electoral process, reduce clientalism , and generally make the government more representative of the people, and not of lobbyists. You can see this weakness in a specific example when looking at the attempted healthcare reform by Obama, and the bill was severely raped by interest groups and pharmaceutical companies, and to this day our healthcare system is characterized by unfair fees and abuse of the less wealthy, and that's coming from an independent who tends to be more conservative.
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Duuvian

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2011, 03:26:13 am »

Do you think Democrats funded the Patriot act because they are afraid that Republicans will actually go through with forcing the government to default? It's either that or work with the Democrats. Now that Obama is not looking so bad and with their own inability to find a candidate, and the constant drain of support their own actions have caused, perhaps they will hold out and allow the government to default?

I sure hope not. It would really make the people uneasy. It also sounds like it is a very very bad thing, and things like this are always understated before they happen.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/05/27/114900/defaulting-on-us-debt-dangerous.html#storylink=omni_popular

« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 03:34:16 am by Duuvian »
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FINISHED original composition:
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Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
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Neonivek

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2011, 03:36:37 am »

I am not surprised

Believe it or not the United States government is already sitting on a mountain of bills they WANT to pass... but don't have the political leeway to do so.

The Patriot Act was one of these bills. They always wanted to enact it but didn't have the will of the people.

Quote
The same way we stopped the CIA from doing whatever the hell they wanted during


Never? I thought that one of the largest problems with controlling the CIA is that they branched off into many divisions.
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Duuvian

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Re: Patriot Act extended
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2011, 04:50:03 am »

Check this out:
From:
2006-12-11

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2007-02-27


Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Then 2008-11-25


Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Then: 2009-10-27


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What forced Medina out is what I'd like to know.
Now:
http://www.markthetruth.com/america/856-usa-main-arms-supplier-of-mexican-drug-cartels.html
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-95521.html
http://www.wikileaks.nl/cable/2009/10/09MEXICO3114.html

Also from:


¶9.  (SBU)  The Attorney General suggested shifting U.S.
Halcon Citations to Guatemala, since, he averred, airborne
shipments of illegal drugs within Mexico toward the north
were rare.  Similarly, Mora staffer Oscar Rocha outlined a
proposal whereby the U.S. would purchase go-fasts seized and
re-furbished by Mexico and provide them to Central American
governments for their own interdiction efforts..  Providing
them a shore-based interdiction capability they currently
lack would compliment U.S. blue water patrols in the region
and get buy-in from the Centrals for a regional counter-drug
effort.  Without providing encouragement to these specific
proposals, Secretary Chertoff agreed the situation warranted
creative approaches and promised to work the inter-agency
community in Washington to see what kinds of resources
various elements, such as DOD, might be able to put into the
mix.

From:
Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.

According to State Department documents, in 2009 Mexico bought nearly $177 million worth of American-made weapons, exceeding sales to Iraq and Afghanistan. That number includes $20 million in semi- and fully automatic weapons.

"Most of the M16s were sold legally to the Mexican government and disappeared," Kartchner added.

State Department cables obtained by WikiLeaks confirm that fear. One cable from November 2009 reads "U.S. law enforcement has fair reason to worry a number of weapons simply disappear... "

Another from June 2009 says, "Rogue elements of the Guatemalan military are selling weapons to narcos."

Does this mean that corrupted parts of the US intelligence community are running a black market arms trade by arming both sides of a conflict started by George W.'s puppet Mexican Presidente?

Does the current war remind you of this?

http://www.wikileaks.nl/cable/2008/04/08MEXICO1248.html
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 05:55:30 am by Duuvian »
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FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit
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