Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Axe vs Hammer vs?  (Read 6042 times)

vorpal+5

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Axe vs Hammer vs?
« on: May 27, 2011, 12:21:03 am »

Why use one weapon or another? Any general hint there?
Logged

tolkafox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Capitalism, ho!
    • View Profile
    • Phantasm
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2011, 12:26:10 am »

They're pretty equal in my opinion, axes have a higher chance of lopping off limbs though which results in more bones.

I use warhammers predominantly in all of my fortresses, silver is easier to produce than steel. I have yet to check the effectiveness of silver axes, but I'm sure it's less than steel axes. Since I've yet to find a fort with all the material for steel, I conserve my steel for armor.

Axes win in the long run though, as steel isn't the best material for axes. Or is it? O.o
Logged
It was a miracle of rare device, A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2011, 12:36:13 am »

I generally only use blunt weapons if I can't get at least steel. Though, I may be persuaded to use Iron or Bronze edge weapons if the goblins and humans are using copper armor. Picks are the exception to the rule because they rock with any metal, from silver to adamantine.

Adamantine is generally the best for axes. However, some recent science had indicated that steel picks are even better than adamantine axes (as a whole), but adamantine picks are not.

Saiko Kila

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven alchemist
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2011, 12:55:35 am »

It also depends on enemies. Killing with both weapons takes more time than with swords or spears, but hammers take most, in my experience. Against unarmored or lightly armored targets at least, I don't encounter heavily armored enemies. Axes chop enemies to pieces and allow them to bleed from the start of fight. Hammers do not. Last fight with Forgotten Beast took 24 screens of text, with three maxed hammerdwarves. Axedwarves would take less, and would produce many limbs, some of them would rot to bones. So I prefer axes. Steel ones even though I have adamantine - I hate carny color and low weight of that "metal" and prefer it for walls and such. And for picks for civilians. But I give hammers to marksdwarves as a secondary weapon, and have some squads of hammerdwarves for fun. If weapons in the game were realistic then hammers and picks should be weapon of choice against heavy armor and mounted enemies. Well, maybe that's how it is, but I have no much luck for both of these types.
Logged

NecroRebel

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2011, 01:01:24 am »

Slashing weapons, like axes, are typically most effective against relatively small creatures that have weaker armor than you do weapons. They'll lop off limbs efficiently against such creatures, thus rapidly and drastically reducing the enemy's ability to counterattack. Their ability to take off limbs also makes them most effective against inorganic creatures, such as undead or some forgotten beasts, as the other damage types don't do much against such things. Unfortunately, against creatures that are too large, they'll be unable to do more than just damage limbs or musculature and will thus take a long time to kill big things without seriously reducing their fighting power.

Piercing weapons, like spears, are typically most effective against very large unarmored organic creatures. They'll damage organs directly and can thus actually kill such enemies more quickly than an axe, which would likely only damage limbs. The trouble is, they're not really better at piercing armor than slashing weapons, and if an enemy is small enough that your attacks can remove limbs altogether the difference between a piercing attack that kills an enemy relatively quickly but leaves it fighting at 100% until it drops and a slashing attack that kills slowly but reduces fighting power in the meantime favors the slashing weapon.

Swords are somewhat like weaker axes in terms of cutting power, but also have the piercing power of weak spears. They're thus versatile weapons usable against anything.

Blunt weapons are most effective against armored targets. Their attacks can bypass armor far more effectively than slashing or piercing weapons, allowing them to score instant kills where slashing or piercing weapons wouldn't. Unfortunately, their overall effectiveness is relatively low; the damage they cause to limbs and organs with a blow that bypasses armor is less than another weapon would cause with an armor-bypassing blow, so where there's no armor to bypass they're worse. Against large creatures, they'll have much the same problems as slashing weapons: ability to damage musculature, but not to actually kill without a large strength, skill, quality, and/or material advantage.



Picks are believed to be very good weapons, as they behave something like slashing weapons and something like piercing weapons without really being either. They can effectively sever appendages, but also can penetrate to damage organs.



Overall, I myself typically equip all of my soldiers with axes. High-quality bronze in a legend's hands is enough to kill forgotten beasts (the largest common enemy) efficiently, while steel or, better yet, adamantine can allow even a middling-strength novice to shear off anything's limbs. That material advantage means that the sizes against which axes are most effective go up to be larger than even the largest creatures, so they're simply excellent all-around weapons.
Logged
A Better Magma Pump Stack: For all your high-FPS surface-level magma installation needs!

vorpal+5

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2011, 01:16:11 am »

wow... impressive info, thanks much all!
Logged

gtmattz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PREFSTRING:BEARD]
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2011, 01:17:53 am »

I usually arm my military with 2 steel or adamantine axes, but the only real reason is because I love seeing the lopped off limb spam I think.
Logged
Quote from: Hyndis
Just try it! Its not like you die IRL if Urist McMiner falls into magma.

Mechatronic

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2011, 01:43:06 am »

Is the reason that warhammers aren't deflected often by armour due to being blunt or their low contact area? All of the "armour piercing" attacks have small contact areas, and there are just as many edged as blunt ones. Eg. warhammers 10, whips 1, bolts 2, spears stabbing 20 compared to both hacking and slapping with an axe (40,000) or slashing with a sword (20,000).
Logged

aaOzymandias

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 03:41:01 am »

I usually do a mix. If a Dwarf has some skills with one weapon form the go, I give him that.

I have also had success with maces. I made some steel maces (before I found silver) and my low skill dwarves knocked in a lot of heads on a hydra with it. I did not get hurt at all by the hyra actually, the maces kept knocking it down. I am usually happy with warhammers, but maces looks to be not so bad against bigger unarmored targets either.

Mainly, my forces do use axes though, with some warhammers here and there. I try to make one spear squad also. But unless I actually get steel, I seldom bother wit hedge or piercing weapon, and make just blut. Adamantine chages everything tho. Adamanite axes chop things up real nice.

As for swords, they are OK actually, but not dwarvens enough for me unless the dwarf has the skill :)
Logged

Blade Master Model 42

  • Bay Watcher
  • Edelgard did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 06:18:14 am »

I get tetrahedrite on almost all maps, so I always have quite a few hammerdwarves.

Other than that, I try to keep it varied. Besides Maces, the rest are pretty edge dependent, so I wait for steel or addy. At which point limbs do begin to disembark from goblin-kind. A lot.

Alastar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2011, 04:28:24 pm »

Blunt weapons are the best can openers. More useful against us than for us, as in the unhacked game invaders don't have very good armour. Any material is serviceable, so they remain worth considering if all you have is silver. It seems that maces have more potential than hammers but require more strength/skill to use effectively.

Spears will get to the juicy bits of large beasties and do an adequate job at defeating equal armour; if you have material superiority slashing blades will kill humanoids more quickly.

Axes will reduce weakly armoured humanoids to a shower of limbs very quickly, but struggle to get through anything tough (armour, massive skulls). This ceases to be a problem once you have adamantine.

Short swords are a compromise - some slashes, some stabs, neither as extreme and individually weaker (lighter than axes, less penetration depth than spears)

Picks are in my opinion the best general purpose weapon without adamantine. A single attack type that penetrates deeply, is stabby enough to dig through tough things and slashy enough to take off human-sized limbs, with more power behind it than other weapons.

*

Weapons to watch out for:

Whip: Dodgy implementation, the game thinks it's rigid and that the whole thing moves at the speed of the tip. Tiny supersonic hammer that ignore armour; more useful against us than for us.
Scourge: Will defeat most armour we can make. Will maim rather than kill because of its low penetration depth.
Morningstar: Similar but more lethal; not a bad weapon for ourselves if we want a can opener that doesn't suck for anything else.
Dagger: Very dangerous. Its slashing hits may be weak, but they're good enough to kill civilians quickly. Stabs are fine enough to defeat armour with ease and penetrate deep enough to cause trouble.
Logged

Azated

  • Bay Watcher
  • ohai der
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2011, 04:35:21 pm »

Warhammers are generally considered the best weapon for outright killing, regardless of the material used.

I personally prefer spears. They often don't kill as fast, but the victim is pretty much guaranteed to die after a single good strike.
Logged
Then it happened. Then I cringed. Then I picked it up and beat him to death with it, and then his buddies, too.
You beat a man to death with his dick?

"I don't feel like myself. Maybe I should have Doc take a look at me" ~ Dreamy
 "You're gonna trust a dwarf that got his medical degree from a pickaxe?" ~ Bossy

Avo

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2011, 04:40:35 pm »

It also depends on enemies. Killing with both weapons takes more time than with swords or spears, but hammers take most, in my experience. Against unarmored or lightly armored targets at least, I don't encounter heavily armored enemies. Axes chop enemies to pieces and allow them to bleed from the start of fight. Hammers do not. Last fight with Forgotten Beast took 24 screens of text, with three maxed hammerdwarves. Axedwarves would take less, and would produce many limbs, some of them would rot to bones. So I prefer axes. Steel ones even though I have adamantine - I hate carny color and low weight of that "metal" and prefer it for walls and such. And for picks for civilians. But I give hammers to marksdwarves as a secondary weapon, and have some squads of hammerdwarves for fun. If weapons in the game were realistic then hammers and picks should be weapon of choice against heavy armor and mounted enemies. Well, maybe that's how it is, but I have no much luck for both of these types.
You use adamantine for walls? Into the magma with this one!
Logged

EmperorJon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Still waiting...
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2011, 04:41:45 pm »

Why? What could be more dwarvenly? Using adamantine for toilet paper I suppose.
Logged
I think it's the way towns develop now. In the beginning, people move into a town. Then they start producing tables, which results in more and more tables. Soon tables represent a significant portion of the population, they start lobbying for new laws and regulations, putting people to greater and greater disadvantage...
Link for full quote. 'tis mighty funny.

Blade Master Model 42

  • Bay Watcher
  • Edelgard did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
Re: Axe vs Hammer vs?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 06:44:52 pm »

Why? What could be more dwarvenly? Using adamantine for toilet paper I suppose.

The undisputed HEIGHT of decadence. Especially since poop hasn't been implemented.
Pages: [1] 2