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[Nikov]

...to a minimal degree at the very least most...

Fixed. I'm not too worried about sea levels rising all that much, and even if they did, it still amounts to drops in a bucket. You're technically right, in the sense that adding a drop of bleach to sewage makes it safer to drink.

Yes, parts of just about any massive near-continent sized region could be successfully irrigated. Everyone is being a bit too general.

[Duuvian]

Somehow it seems more efficient for the Libyans to just trade oil for dollars, then dollars for U.S. agricultural products. I mean, I have strawberries in my refrigerator in Febuary not because of an elaborate greenhouse system next door, but because Argentina exports them in winter.

It would be more efficient, yes, but there is the old rule of money supply; which we are still tied to via other currencies. Basically as we keep sending money out of the country, money will be more and more stratified as the supply of money runs low; until something weird happens or we are eternally in debt and no one cares (how could that make sense?). That's why there needs to be some back and forth; but actually a lot more forth (exports) because right now if we were some kind of video game of government we're still the toughest militarily definitely and yet rebuilding economically.

EDIT: Crazy idea: Libya is the 51st state?

[Criptfeind]

I thought Mercantilism died out three hundred years ago. At any rate, can you tell me more of this ‘as the supply of money runs low’? It wounds fascinating.

[Duuvian]

As money flows overseas, the government has to print more money to cover what is lost.

That's the problem with being the worlds market. Once it's feasible, the corporations move overseas as operating costs can be lower to ship the goods here due to wages or taxes being lower overseas.

[Criptfeind]

Care to tell us why we should care?

[Duuvian]

Because lots of people get jobs and water to drink? Because it will make us friends forever with the area if it's done right? Because it can make lots of people lots of money? Because it can lift an entire region out of poverty? Because it will be the first step in knowing how to divert water to useful places in the hypothetical possibility that in the off chance, hey, maybe the glaciers are melting because I live on a Peninsula and the water level is about 8 feet higher than when I was a child, and the past two years it has been a substantial increase.

[Nikov]

As money flows overseas, the government has to print more money to cover what is lost.

*eyetwitch*

The money isn't lost, ever. Haven't you heard of banks trading currencies?

[Duuvian]

I think there's a reason the Sahara's a desert and that it's stayed that way for a while.

Reason: It's a bunch of really hot, low-nutrient shifty sand with very few natural water sources spread over a large area.

Seriously, if you could manage to get a bunch of water into the Sahara, you'd have a hell of a time getting anything to grow. And this is AFTER you manage to get your water management buildings set up to protect your pumps from sandstorms and shit. AND, even if you got something to grow, you'd have to supply it with water to keep it from drying up. And keeping a water supply requires... energy. And we're already running rather low on that at the moment as it is, as is noticeable with the rising gas prices. And the purpose of terraforming this massive chunk of sand is.... what again?

So is it doable? Maybe. Is it practical or useful in the current economy? No.

It's obviously practical in the current economy. Why else would a bunch of corporations do it? They were able to create a port city with a desalination plant; why couldn't a series of desalination plants shipped via pipeline do the same? It's essentially what companies do to rural people when they want to expand their sewers to make money. Except in this case they aren't forcing people to give up a viable source of water through taking over the local government, and instead are providing a service that wasn't available before.

They made a port city via desalinization. Cool. It probably had a use.

What use, exactly, could a terraformed Sahara have to a corporation which is aiming to increase profit?

What did the Prairie turn into? The Western States?

The Prairie was very productive farmland. Still is, in a way. The Sahara would not be, because it's all sand. Sand is usually not very conducive to growing plants, especially when sandstorms happen.

Fakeedit: I want to know how you intend to get all this compost and dump it in the Sahara in such a way that it won't get tossed around by the wind or fried into a cake by the heat.

Actually, throughout American History, the first farms always used poor farming methods, which reduced the soil qualities for later generations. This resulted in the dust bowl. This was countered by modern farming techniques, mostly irrigation, fertilization, and compost. Some areas are simply a much warmer dustbowl.

[Duuvian]

As money flows overseas, the government has to print more money to cover what is lost.

*eyetwitch*

The money isn't lost, ever. Haven't you heard of banks trading currencies?

Of course. What I'm saying though is that money from area A, ends up in area B, and I am not in area B. Therefore that wealth is not available to me anymore, correct? What I'm speaking of is the private citizen's point of view of international wealth.

Eventually, once all the wealth is gone from A, where I am, to B, it doesn't matter what currency A uses as it will be deflated or something.

[TherosPherae]

I think there's a reason the Sahara's a desert and that it's stayed that way for a while.

Reason: It's a bunch of really hot, low-nutrient shifty sand with very few natural water sources spread over a large area.

Seriously, if you could manage to get a bunch of water into the Sahara, you'd have a hell of a time getting anything to grow. And this is AFTER you manage to get your water management buildings set up to protect your pumps from sandstorms and shit. AND, even if you got something to grow, you'd have to supply it with water to keep it from drying up. And keeping a water supply requires... energy. And we're already running rather low on that at the moment as it is, as is noticeable with the rising gas prices. And the purpose of terraforming this massive chunk of sand is.... what again?

So is it doable? Maybe. Is it practical or useful in the current economy? No.

It's obviously practical in the current economy. Why else would a bunch of corporations do it? They were able to create a port city with a desalination plant; why couldn't a series of desalination plants shipped via pipeline do the same? It's essentially what companies do to rural people when they want to expand their sewers to make money. Except in this case they aren't forcing people to give up a viable source of water through taking over the local government, and instead are providing a service that wasn't available before.

They made a port city via desalinization. Cool. It probably had a use.

What use, exactly, could a terraformed Sahara have to a corporation which is aiming to increase profit?

What did the Prairie turn into? The Western States?

The Prairie was very productive farmland. Still is, in a way. The Sahara would not be, because it's all sand. Sand is usually not very conducive to growing plants, especially when sandstorms happen.

Fakeedit: I want to know how you intend to get all this compost and dump it in the Sahara in such a way that it won't get tossed around by the wind or fried into a cake by the heat.

Actually, throughout American History, the first farms always used poor farming methods, which reduced the soil qualities for later generations. This resulted in the dust bowl. This was countered by modern farming techniques, mostly irrigation, fertilization, and compost. Some areas are simply a much warmer dustbowl.

No. There's a difference between "blistering heat year-round" and normal planting seasons used in the prairie. And while the soil quality may have been reduced, it wasn't turned completely to sand.

Comparison: In my experience, the darker the soil, the more nutrients it has and the better it is for growing stuff.
Dust-bowl stories tell of people seeing "a black wall" that was the dirt carried by the wind. So the dirt was still halfway-decent.
The Sahara is.... sand. Yellow-brown, shifting sand. Horrible for growing stuff.

And you still haven't said how you intend to get all the crap (literally) produced by cities over to the Sahara to be used as fertilizer, how you intend to keep plants from drying up in the heat, and how all this combines to make a profit. And don't say "desalinization plants and pumps," because those typically require very large investment and energy to run said pumps, as well as protection from sandstorms, angry nomads, etc.

[Nikov]

As money flows overseas, the government has to print more money to cover what is lost.

*eyetwitch*

The money isn't lost, ever. Haven't you heard of banks trading currencies?

Of course. What I'm saying though is that money from area A, ends up in area B, and I am not in area B. Therefore that wealth is not available to me anymore, correct? What I'm speaking of is the private citizen's point of view of international wealth.

Eventually, once all the wealth is gone from A, where I am, to B, it doesn't matter what currency A uses as it will be inflated or something.

Money is not wealth, said money is internationally traded in currency markets between banks needing various currencies, floating price points between currencies correct imbalances caused by trade, and reducing the money supply causes deflation, not inflation.

[Duuvian]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As money flows overseas, the government has to print more money to cover what is lost.

*eyetwitch*

The money isn't lost, ever. Haven't you heard of banks trading currencies?

Of course. What I'm saying though is that money from area A, ends up in area B, and I am not in area B. Therefore that wealth is not available to me anymore, correct? What I'm speaking of is the private citizen's point of view of international wealth.

Eventually, once all the wealth is gone from A, where I am, to B, it doesn't matter what currency A uses as it will be inflated or something.

Money is not wealth, said money is internationally traded in currency markets between banks needing various currencies, floating price points between currencies correct imbalances caused by trade, and reducing the money supply causes deflation, not inflation.

Oops, yeah, you're right about reducing the money supply causing deflation. I'll edit that and return shortly.

EDIT:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think there's a reason the Sahara's a desert and that it's stayed that way for a while.

Reason: It's a bunch of really hot, low-nutrient shifty sand with very few natural water sources spread over a large area.

Seriously, if you could manage to get a bunch of water into the Sahara, you'd have a hell of a time getting anything to grow. And this is AFTER you manage to get your water management buildings set up to protect your pumps from sandstorms and shit. AND, even if you got something to grow, you'd have to supply it with water to keep it from drying up. And keeping a water supply requires... energy. And we're already running rather low on that at the moment as it is, as is noticeable with the rising gas prices. And the purpose of terraforming this massive chunk of sand is.... what again?

So is it doable? Maybe. Is it practical or useful in the current economy? No.

It's obviously practical in the current economy. Why else would a bunch of corporations do it? They were able to create a port city with a desalination plant; why couldn't a series of desalination plants shipped via pipeline do the same? It's essentially what companies do to rural people when they want to expand their sewers to make money. Except in this case they aren't forcing people to give up a viable source of water through taking over the local government, and instead are providing a service that wasn't available before.

They made a port city via desalinization. Cool. It probably had a use.

What use, exactly, could a terraformed Sahara have to a corporation which is aiming to increase profit?

What did the Prairie turn into? The Western States?

The Prairie was very productive farmland. Still is, in a way. The Sahara would not be, because it's all sand. Sand is usually not very conducive to growing plants, especially when sandstorms happen.

Fakeedit: I want to know how you intend to get all this compost and dump it in the Sahara in such a way that it won't get tossed around by the wind or fried into a cake by the heat.

Actually, throughout American History, the first farms always used poor farming methods, which reduced the soil qualities for later generations. This resulted in the dust bowl. This was countered by modern farming techniques, mostly irrigation, fertilization, and compost. Some areas are simply a much warmer dustbowl.

No. There's a difference between "blistering heat year-round" and normal planting seasons used in the prairie. And while the soil quality may have been reduced, it wasn't turned completely to sand.

Comparison: In my experience, the darker the soil, the more nutrients it has and the better it is for growing stuff.
Dust-bowl stories tell of people seeing "a black wall" that was the dirt carried by the wind. So the dirt was still halfway-decent.
The Sahara is.... sand. Yellow-brown, shifting sand. Horrible for growing stuff.

And you still haven't said how you intend to get all the crap (literally) produced by cities over to the Sahara to be used as fertilizer, how you intend to keep plants from drying up in the heat, and how all this combines to make a profit. And don't say "desalinization plants and pumps," because those typically require very large investment and energy to run said pumps, as well as protection from sandstorms, angry nomads, etc.

This is all easy stuff that we have today, assuming the oasises set up were well located. As far as dirt, after you put a few feet of compost on a field it won't matter what was on it before; in addition I'm sure there are plants that grow in extreme temperatures available. If I remember correctly, excessive sunlight due to the lack of clouds (which can now apparently be seeded by airplane); caused by mountains or ocean currents keeping the rains away forms deserts. Now; if there were pipelines to fill reservoirs for oasis towns in the desert that came from desalination plants; that's not necessarily terraforming the whole desert. It's certainly a start though towards the eventual expansion that these population centers would generate; likely though expanding the desalination plants on their own and by digging canals if possible. Maybe aqueducts via pipeline. Then, possibly, you could hope for thunderstorms if there were a lot of large lakes. Maybe, I dunno really but it seems like it would be something to investigate as it would make whoever did it successfully absolutely rich.

EDIT: Also, guess what guys? The farm I live on is all yellow sand, haha. We had to fertilize the shit out into of it with seaweed early on from our pond, ash from burnables, and compostable household waste. Not human waste but like food waste like apple rinds or chicken bones and such. It goes out in a barrel and tipped over and roto-tilled every year; and it only took 10 years to go from a former cow pasture that was only suitable for grazing grasses to something that is producing a nice crop. Now that we have animals, the soil is absolutely wonderful. Yet if you dig 30 feet away from the garden you'll hit the wet yellow sand. The glaciers pushed the sand ahead of it in a previous ice age and made hills out of it.

[scriver]

Stop it with the quote pyramids, people. There's no need to repeat the whole damn argument in every post you write.

And Duuvian, I'm certain you're not the first to have this idea, and I'm pretty sure the reason it's not already being done is that it's just not economically feasible, even if it was earth/dirt-wise.

[Reelyanoob]

EDIT: Crazy idea: Libya is the 51st state?

Libya is nowhere near the US and has little connection. They're far more likely to become part of the EU, than the USA.

Main problem with the greening Sahara plan is the cost in resources, i.e. there's other more productive uses for those resources already, so they'd never be diverted for that purpose. To say it could happen you have to show that it's more efficient than every other use of those resources.

BTW as Criptfiend said, the money supply never runs low. By it's definition and how it's handled/created, that's impossible, just never going to happen. You need to read up on some economics if you think that a trade deficit leads to "running out of money". It's certainly a problem, but not that one.

[Duuvian]

Stop it with the quote pyramids, people. There's no need to repeat the whole damn argument in every post you write.

And Duuvian, I'm certain you're not the first to have this idea, and I'm pretty sure the reason it's not already being done is that it's just not economically feasible, even if it was earth/dirt-wise.

Didn't I already prove it's economically feasible with the first link? The main problem would be infrastructure. You could maybe even build trains along the pipes so if the trains broke down at least you could drink from the spigot I'd assume would be somewhere every so far on the water pipe.

Also, yeah the 51st state is a stupid idea. Also, I agree that I'm sure there are more productive uses for resources than greening the Sahara. I was just thinking of a practical Statue of Liberty type idea for Libya's revolution. It would seem infrastructure would be something that not only could be of use, but could also be done in a way that a company could make money from it in the way people who connect to sewers pay for water in return for their investment. That way a government wouldn't have to help as much; perhaps like I said earlier modeled after American railroads in the 1800s, where a small diameter of land is alotted along a pipeline. I suppose it could double as a railroad contract.