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[Svarte Troner]

Hail Perun, Rod, Veles, and Svetovid!

And Triglav, Morana, Dazhbog, Zaria, Jarilo, Ipabog, Belobog, Chernobog, Stribog, and Kresnik.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Are you all shocked? 

[Siquo]

The Golden Rule (which is common to basically all religions - I think humans realise that it's necessary for a remotely stable society, and therefore it got written into most religions) of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

That's a myth. What most religions do have in common is indeed stable society stuff, like don't kill your neighbour, but mostly this is limited to the clan/tribe/religion. Everyone else is free game. Yippeekayee Mo'fos.

With this set of value how come you disagree that hard with me on the piracy thread?
You're displaying hardcore objectivism here, and when I shoot down copyright as a right to control all copy as obviously inefficient and out of touch with reality you defend it on moral grounds?

Everyone thinks his belief is universal, even as others do have a point, they're obviously not the belief. And even knowing that morals are completely relative, doesn't mean you shouldn't choose a set and stick by them. Otherwise you become immoral, having none at all, which is as self destructive as idealogies come.

Disclaimer: I believe in a single God, but Not At All like Omegastick. I do not see miracles (except once, which incited the belief), doubt the existence of a soul, am quite sure the bible wasn't written by God, and am very sure that our minds are nothing more than neurons. And what's keeping the universe together is more probably gravity and the strong electromagnetic force.

[lemon10]

In answer to the OP (as I can't be bothered to read the whole topic):

I believe that there is a God for several reasons. First and foremost is because see miracles in the world around me; miracles happen all over the world every few seconds (my definition of a miracle is something that completely defies physics/ignores almost impossible odds that someone has prayed for). For example, I have been to Newday (A Christian youth event) three times now. Each time , on the one from last night, a healing night is held. These are amazing, and literally hundreds of people are healed. Healings there range from things like people's eyesight being fixed to allergies being fixed to full on spinal restructure (one girl had a horribly deformed spine that was fixed in about ten seconds. One of my friends had a lactose intolerance healed and another had is broken leg made better instantly.

There has not been a single verifiable case of a faith healing (while on the flip side there have been verified cases of faith healing fraud and simply being wrong), and in addition to that, faith healings occur at the same rate that regular healings occured there is no statistical difference between those who pray to get healed and those who don't.

Secondly (it should really be my first reason, but I'm not a brilliant Christian), Jesus has told us that it is true. How we know that Jesus was telling the truth is something else altogether which could take up pages and pages. If you really want, I can skim the surface of the topic, but I don't have the time for a full thing.

Ok, so you just believe the bible is true because it says so, circular logic at its best.

Thirdly, it seems impossible that we are just computers. There is no way that we are simply random chemical reactions going off in our head that causes us to be able to manipulate the world around us and think/talk about philosophy. Animals work in just the same way, but are nothing like us because they have no spirit. We have a spirit and therefore we can reason rationally and act the way we do. We can create art and come up with new ideas (which you never see an animal doing). It is impossible for computers to be truly creative like us because computers do not have spirit. We can make computers that appear to be creative, but they are actually just following out the algorithms that the creative human has given it to do and assigning logical values to random bits.

Animals are like us. We have no single faculty that animals don't have. Animals have tools (monkies), animals have language (whales), animals have art (elephants), they are able to solve complex problems and manipulate the world around them (monkies), some are also self aware.
While I doubt they have philosiphy, that is simply because we are smarter and more complex then they are.
Humans aren't unique, we are simply the smartest beings on the planet.
If you get a system complex and well built enough, then human level intelligence is possible, a spirit isn't nessasary.

[Bauglir]

Humans aren't unique, we are simply the smartest beings on the planet.

Dude, housepets. Think about it. Free food, free shelter, all the attention you could ask for. Sleep and eat all day, play whenever it suits you. What more could a lifeform ask for? I tell ya, they got it made, and it is almost certainly because they engineered us into it, and definitely not the reverse.

[Cthulhu]

I consider it a mutual symbiosis.  Yeah, they get free food and hugs and all that, but come on.

Spoiler: Look at it (click to show/hide)

Look at that.  If you wouldn't love to give that thing free food and shelter, you might be a robot.

[Angel Of Death]

That puppy looks kinda tasty.

DAMN YOU, DWARF FORTRESS!

[TherosPherae]

I consider it a mutual symbiosis.  Yeah, they get free food and hugs and all that, but come on.

Spoiler: Look at it (click to show/hide)

Look at that.  If you wouldn't love to give that thing free food and shelter, you might be a robot.

It's cross-eyed just enough to be really, really creepy.

[Criptfeind]

Stuff.

I was almost waiting for it.

At any rate, the important thing to remember is that what you just said is not relevant to the op, and will do nothing but inflame people.

Carry on.

I consider it a mutual symbiosis.  Yeah, they get free food and hugs and all that, but come on.

Spoiler: Look at it (click to show/hide)

Look at that.  If you wouldn't love to give that thing free food and shelter, you might be a robot.

Wow. That looks like the demon born love child of a ugly pug and special ed.

The only thing I would feed it would be poison, to clean the gene pool.

[Omegastick]

In answer to the OP (as I can't be bothered to read the whole topic):

I believe that there is a God for several reasons. First and foremost is because see miracles in the world around me; miracles happen all over the world every few seconds (my definition of a miracle is something that completely defies physics/ignores almost impossible odds that someone has prayed for). For example, I have been to Newday (A Christian youth event) three times now. Each time , on the one from last night, a healing night is held. These are amazing, and literally hundreds of people are healed. Healings there range from things like people's eyesight being fixed to allergies being fixed to full on spinal restructure (one girl had a horribly deformed spine that was fixed in about ten seconds. One of my friends had a lactose intolerance healed and another had is broken leg made better instantly.

There has not been a single verifiable case of a faith healing I have to disagree with you there. Where do you live? Next time there is a decently large Christian event (small ones may not have anyone that is ill, which has happened at a few I've been to), tag along and see for yourself.(while on the flip side there have been verified cases of faith healing fraud and simply being wrongOf course there are frauds, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is a fraud as well.), and in addition to that, faith healings occur at the same rate that regular healings occured there is no statistical difference between those who pray to get healed and those who don't. There are two things wrong with that sentence: firstly, if faith healing has never happened, then how can it happen at the same rate as normal healing, secondly... What? If they happen just as fast/slow as normal healings then doesn't that completely defeat the point of them being faith healings? Deformed spines, eyesight, hearing, paraplegia, etc. don't just heal up in seconds on their own.

Secondly (it should really be my first reason, but I'm not a brilliant Christian), Jesus has told us that it is true. How we know that Jesus was telling the truth is something else altogether which could take up pages and pages. If you really want, I can skim the surface of the topic, but I don't have the time for a full thing.

Ok, so you just believe the bible is true because it says so, circular logic at its best. *Sigh* As I said, the explanation for how we know that Jesus was telling the truth is a separate discussion that I really don't have time to go into now, I have exams in the morning.

Thirdly, it seems impossible that we are just computers. There is no way that we are simply random chemical reactions going off in our head that causes us to be able to manipulate the world around us and think/talk about philosophy. Animals work in just the same way, but are nothing like us because they have no spirit. We have a spirit and therefore we can reason rationally and act the way we do. We can create art and come up with new ideas (which you never see an animal doing). It is impossible for computers to be truly creative like us because computers do not have spirit. We can make computers that appear to be creative, but they are actually just following out the algorithms that the creative human has given it to do and assigning logical values to random bits.

Animals are like us. We have no single faculty that animals don't have. Animals have tools (monkies)I never said that there was anything wrong with that., animals have language (whales) Entirely possible with just plain old chemical reactions. The thing is, a monkey will never decide to turn his rock/stick into a wrench and start building things or even strap them together and make a hammer unless some mutation in the brain makes it do so., animals have art (elephants)A dude/dudette gave elephants paintbrushes, and when they hit the paper with the brush correctly, he gave them a treat. The elephants are simply doing what they have been 'programmed' to do to get a treat in return., they are able to solve complex problems and manipulate the world around them (monkies)All possible with algorithms, when I said manipulate the world around us I meant in such a way that we create ordered cities, invent flying machines and so on., some are also self awareCongrats, four animals have looked in a mirror and 'know' that it is a reflection of themselves.
While I doubt they have philosiphy, that is simply because we are smarter and more complex then they are.
Humans aren't unique, we are simply the smartest beings on the planet. I disagree.
If you get a system complex and well built enough, then human level intelligence is possible, a spirit isn't nessasary. I also disagree, I reckon you could build one that could act a lot like a human and easily fool people into thinking it's human, but without human input it wont have the qualities that a spirit gives.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that animals and humans aren't amazing feats of 'programming' (for lack of a better word), I'm just saying that animals don't have a spirit and humans do.

Please note that that post hasn't been proofread and may have any number of mistakes in it.

[Bohandas]

I am an atheist and I have a serious question for Theists, How Have you come to believe in a all-powerful being?

What are your reasons? and Rational?

The idea that a being must be all-powerful to qualify as a "god" is a judeo-christian invention. Most ancient pantheons had much lower entry requirements. Given that the thunderbolts of Jupiter were not an inherent power, but manufactured by Vulcanus, the argument could be made that any jackass with a tesla coil could qualify as a god by their standards.

[Siquo]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that animals and humans aren't amazing feats of 'programming' (for lack of a better word), I'm just saying that animals don't have a spirit and humans do.

Your natural examples are wrong. I'm pretty agnostic as to God's nature so you can say what you want about her, but don't be touching the natural world. Also, since I also believe in God I feel entitled to kick ass.

- Apes do create tools: they have been observed to use branches to create better branches to be able to extract termites from mounds: using object A to create object B to use for something is toolmaking.
- Apes have created art, and liked doing it (didn't get treats). Art as in they would do variations on themes, it wasn't random.
- We do not create ordered cities. A termite mound is more ordered and better built than any human city.
- We did invent flying machines. All possible with algorithms, and using observations of nature, I fail to see where your spirit comes in.

So in short: what makes you so special? A "spirit"? What does it do? What observable trait makes you more than a tiny little blob of water and carbon?



Oh, and good luck on your exams.

[Leafsnail]

@Siquo: Heh, I guess I didn't actually clarify that the Golden Rule only tends to apply in group for religions.  You don't really need to extend the same ideas to other groups, I suppose.

@Astral: I don't think that examples of other people having different ideas of good and bad means that a particular, well defined measure of good and bad cannot be applied objectively ("The people following Hitler weren't necessarily bad" is a separate issue).  For an analogy... if I defined red as a certain set of wavelengths of light, I could objectively measure whether something is red or not according to this definition, even if other people disagree.

There has not been a single verifiable case of a faith healing I have to disagree with you there. Where do you live? Next time there is a decently large Christian event (small ones may not have anyone that is ill, which has happened at a few I've been to), tag along and see for yourself.

If you disagree with "There's been no verifiable case of faith healing", then you should be able to present an example of verified faith healing.  I'm not doubting that the confidence boost you get from going to a "faith healing" event can act as a powerful placebo, but I've certainly never seen any compelling evidence that it does anything more.

*Sigh* As I said, the explanation for how we know that Jesus was telling the truth is a separate discussion that I really don't have time to go into now, I have exams in the morning.

The thing is... even if we take every single word that Jesus said to be 100% true, that doesn't change the fact that his words may have been misreported by the Bible.  And you're saying your logic for believing the Bible is true is based on Jesus saying it's true, so...

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that animals and humans aren't amazing feats of 'programming' (for lack of a better word), I'm just saying that animals don't have a spirit and humans do.

This logic seems a bit circular though.  Everything an animal does is a result of programming because they don't have a spirit, and animals don't have a spirit because everything they do is down to programming.

Sure, you can explain everything an animal does in terms of programming, but can't you do the same for humans?  I only speak English because I was taught to, I only have morals due to a combination of basic moral codes inherent to me and what I was taught by society, I'm only atheist because of my surroundings etc.

[Spartan-67]

Oh GOD What have I done!

"Oh God" is just an expression, This is my last post in this topic.

[Bohandas]

There has not been a single verifiable case of a faith healing I have to disagree with you there. Where do you live? Next time there is a decently large Christian event (small ones may not have anyone that is ill, which has happened at a few I've been to), tag along and see for yourself.

If you disagree with "There's been no verifiable case of faith healing", then you should be able to present an example of verified faith healing.  I'm not doubting that the confidence boost you get from going to a "faith healing" event can act as a powerful placebo, but I've certainly never seen any compelling evidence that it does anything more.

Technically, in this case, it would boil down to whether the healer claims that "God has healed you" or "Your faith in God has healed you", because technically the second claim could be consitent with the placebo effect (and, in fact, borders on being a definition of it).

(This, of course, assumes a literal interpretation of the claim, without regard for connotations)

[Leafsnail]

That's actually a completely fair point, although if you interpret it that way it can't really be seen as evidence for a deity anymore.