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[Ziusudra]

I just noticed this on 33g and checked 33a, so I assume it's on all the 33 releases.

When you build a down or up/down stairway the stone/soil directly below it on the next z-level is revealed, but the stone directly above an up or up/down stairway is not revealed.  You can designate the spot and the dwarves will follow the order and can get to the spot so it's not a big deal.  But it would be nice to know what they're digging into, especially if it's valuable or useful.

Actually I just checked (on 33g) and they will dig into damp stone without warning this way, so I assume they would with warm.  Which I suppose could be a big deal.

[Tamren]

This actually sort of makes sense.

See when you build a down stairway, you are digging a pit and cutting steps into it.

When you build an UP stairway, you are building steps that rise up towards the ceiling. So until you "break ground" on the above floor by cutting a downward staircase into the floor above you would have no idea whats up there.

[Yat]

That's how I had figured it as well, I don't think it's a bug

[Ziusudra]

Even if you're digging down you're not digging into the next level.  When you dig down you stop at the top of the level below.  When you dig up you stop at the bottom of the level above.

Either way you would see what you're digging into.

[Janus]

The floor below is automatically removed when you build a down staircase or up/down staircase, thus revealing the square below. When building an up staircase or up/down staircase, the floor of the square above is not removed, so you can't see the contents squares above.
Wouldn't want to remove the floor of an entirely different square without putting that square's down staircase in place of the floor, right?

[Ziusudra]

It has no floor; until the dwarves actually do something to that spot in the z-level above the stairs it's just a block of stone or whatever.

Edit: And since when you just mine a square the resulting floor is made out of whatever the square was you'd still be able to see what the square is made of from below.

[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Ziusudra ]

[Janus]

quote:<STRONG>It has no floor; until the dwarves actually do something to that spot in the z-level above the stairs it's just a block of stone or whatever.</STRONG>

That's not how it works. Solid rock squares do in fact have a floor as far as the game mechanics are concerned.

quote:<STRONG>And since when you just mine a square the resulting floor is made out of whatever the square was you'd still be able to see what the square is made of from below.</STRONG>

You do make a decent point here, though.

[ein Syndication]

I always assumed the "floor" was half made of the surface above and half made of the surface below, in a way like having an invisible ceiling.

Iunno, maybe it's just too dark to see up the infinite length of one z-level?

[Yourself]

quote:You do make a decent point here, though.

Except that, by that reasoning, simply mining out a hallway should reveal what's above you.  That's also assuming that when you dig, you actually do dig out the area up to the next type of stone.

I'm with ein Syndication here.  I've always considered floors to be half-way between z-levels.

[Ziusudra]

quote:Originally posted by Yourself:
<STRONG>Except that, by that reasoning, simply mining out a hallway should reveal what's above you.  That's also assuming that when you dig, you actually do dig out the area up to the next type of stone.</STRONG>

When they dig stairs that go up I'm quite sure they would dig all the way to the bottom of the next level. Just like how they dig down stairs to the top of the level below.  If they just mine a square they would leave a ceiling, just like they leave a floor.

If they didn't dig all the way to bottom of the level above they wouldn't be able to dig in that next level when there was no other way to access it, which they can do.

Software constructs shouldn't be confused with what they represent.

Either up stairs go all the way to the bottom of the level above and it should reveal, or they don't and dwarves shouldn't be able to dig in the level above if they don't have any other access, or down stairs shouldn't reveal whats below them.

[Nesoo]

Think of it like this:

code:

f = floor; presume between levels (as ein Syndication said)
1, 2, 3 = rock in numbered z level, counting down
spaces are mined out on 2nd z level
Mine out an area:
111111111
fffffffff
222
fffffffff
333333333
fffffffff
From that, add down stairs (removes rock and floor (in that order)
in level 2 and reveals level 3):
111111111
fffffffff
>>>ffffff
333333333
fffffffff
From the first diagram, add up stairs (can access level 1, without
revealing it; adding down stairs above would remove the floor and
rock (in that order) from layer 1):
111111111
fffffffff
<<<
fffffffff
333333333
fffffffff

The game itself seems to support this view as well; you can dig down stairs on an existing up stairs (because the floor is still there), but not vice versa (the rock that would be used to carve the up stairs was removed when the down stairs were dug out).

All that said, however, I'd prefer that up stairs revealed the tile above.

[Edit: Minor clarifications, aesthetics.]

[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Nesoo ]

[Ziusudra]

Which would all be fine and dandy if the floor weren't listed as being made out of whatever was mined off of it.  If that were the case you should be able to see what the floor is made from above any dug square. I'm saying it's like this:

code:

111111 -> 111111 -> 111111
111111    111111    111111
111111    111111    111111
111111    111111    111111
222222    222222    22<222
222222    222       22<
222222    222       22<
222222    222222    22>222
333333    333333    333333
333333    333333    333333
333333    333333    333333
333333    333333    333333

No software construct or idea of a 'floor', just stone on stone.

And, you can't add an up stairway where you previously dug a down stairway because you had to remove the stone above where you want the down stairway to get to the 'floor'.  Once you have down stairs...

code:

1111
1
1
1>11

... there's nothing to dig up stairs into.

[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Ziusudra ]

[Aquillion]

No matter how we reason it out, though, I do think there's one thing to keep in mind:

Players are supposed to get the damp / warm stone warning before randomly killing themselves with water / lava.  Any behavior that is preventing them from seeing that warning is problematic, even if it isn't a bug.

For that reason, I think dwarves should get to see the square above an up or up/down staircase, even if this means they're seeing through the floor.  Just say that when the staircase gets them close enough, they can sort of scratch their way in a bit and get a sense of what's above, or whatever.  Floors have no defined thickness, so there's no reason why it shouldn't work that way...

[Derakon]

BUMP

I just got nailed by this because I decided to dig one of my stair shafts from the bottom up instead of the top down. Broached an aquifer with no warning. Please fix this.

[GreyMario]

This is not a bug.

This is simply completely logical.