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[Africa]

My biggest question is: Why would Obama fire up an issue that was just under 50 years old and risk the blaze running out of control?

What are you even talking about? What issue that was under 50 years old? Is your grasp of what's going on over there any less tenuous than in your original post?

The USA and Britain have invested quite a bit in Israel, since they decided to finally give them a place in Palestine back in the day.  Having someone in the middle east that likes us is a good thing, but now it seems like we're just trying to pander to everyone that just wants us to let them be.  We keep poking them and asking, "Does this make you happy?", but they keep screaming, "Just leave me alone!"

And I think that's what we need to do.  Just leave things alone.  Sometimes, inaction is the best course of action.  Picking at a scab just means it'll never heal.

Inaction would be cutting off the millions in aid we give to the PA and the billions in aid plus weapons we give to Israel, among other things. As it is we're so heavily invested in Israel that it sort of becomes our job by default to mediate their problems. Of course, the Palestinians long ago realized it's retarded to let us be the mediator, given that our presidents will regularly contradict their own country's view of international law in order to protect Israel from scrutiny for what it does, among other things.

So, is Israel going to join the anti-American sentiment in the Mid-East, now?  Feels like it. 

Who knows? They certainly will be ungrateful to Obama for the sacrifices of credibility he's made for them. But as soon as a Republican president comes around who slavishly obeys everything AIPAC says, then they'll love America again. That's how it's always worked.

As for what he accomplished, shit, who knows? The PA was like screw that, we're still going to the UN rather than let our enemy's biggest ally/lackey tell us not to assert our rights. Netanyahu was like screw that, we won't...well, act like a reasonable government I guess. In September things are still more or less going to go as planned. Unless Hamas goes even further in moderation than I'm expecting and formally recognizes Israel, negotiations won't restart, and even if that happens, talks still probably won't restart given the fact that Netanyahu would never freeze settlement building. And in any case the PA has given up hope of talks accomplishing anything and they're the only party who see it as in their interest for talks to accomplish anything. Hence the UN move.

It's going to be an interesting September.

[nenjin]

I don't see the UN doing anything about it. Non-binding resolution that the Israelis need to quit living in the 1950s, maybe. Even if most of Europe and the US vote in favor of the PA, I don't see Russia or China honestly voting yes to territorial repatriation.

[RedKing]

You might be surprised. Russia and China have voted yes on "anti-Israel" resolutions before, or at least abstained. It's always been the US that's been the key veto.

I'm sure the respective Israeli ambassadors will be trying to draw parallels to Chechnya and Tibet to goad those two into voting no, but the situations there are somewhat different. The UN (and the bulk of the world) never recognized the 1967 land gains as legitimate. Whereas Chechnya is/was a part of Russia to begin with, and the Chinese "annexation" of Tibet in 1950 is generally recognized, in part because Tibet's de facto independence in the 1910's was never fully recognized and because the Dalai Lama's government actually signed a treaty (albeit under duress) in 1951 affirming Chinese sovereignty.

If anything is going to sway those two, it's going to be flat-out bribery. Israel has a lot of military technology and intel (much of it US-derived) that Russia and China might be interested in. They could also negotiate contracts for major purchases of military hardware, especially if they seriously think that the US weapons might dry up.

[nenjin]

It'll still come down to what the UN is actually willing to do about the situation, and while withdrawing aid and giving it to the PA instead is one thing, embargoes or peace keeping forces is another. The International Community may be getting sick of the hardliners, but Israel as a country still has great relations in the meantime. Kind of like it took the moderate Palestinians to legitimize the PA, it's going to take moderate Israelis taking power and forcibly changing Israeli policy. What else can the UN do short of the things usually reserved for rogue nations with bad track records in a number of areas?

[Africa]

yeah, that's the thing - a recognized declaration of statehood won't force Israel to change anything. Everyone is already telling them not to build settlements on Palestinian land, so when everyone tells them to stop building settlements on land that's part of Palestine, how much difference will that make? I don't think it'll actually make much difference but hey.

[Knight of Fools]

My biggest question is: Why would Obama fire up an issue that was just under 50 years old and risk the blaze running out of control?

What are you even talking about? What issue that was under 50 years old? Is your grasp of what's going on over there any less tenuous than in your original post?

Since you seemed to miss part of the discussion: The Six Day War (1967)

So, this is kind of how I saw the whole thing play out:

Obama: OMG Israel!
Israel: WTF?!
Everyone Else: wat evuh
the end.

It didn't accomplish anything.  I agree that we should stop passing money out like candy, but at least be honest about it instead of bringing up old topics to excuse it.

Don't get me wrong, I hope something good does come out of it.  I'm not one of those people that hopes the President does bad stuff just so he can fail, because if he's failing, the country isn't doing too hot, either.  But I think we have a responsibility question the actions of any president.

Generally, I'm more concerned about my own country than Israel.  They're big boys and can take care of themselves, so we don't need to go mashing our noses in their affairs as much as they don't need to come over and tell us how we shouldn't be doing the same to us.  Opinions are welcome, national declarations are rude.

[RedKing]

If you think the '67 war is an "old topic", then I honestly don't know what to say to you. It's a bit like saying the Korean War is an "old topic" on the Korean Peninsula or the Chinese Civil War is "old topic" in Taiwan and China.

A reversion to the pre-1967 borders has been a key demand from many states in the region as a necessary element of any two-state solution, with the Palestinian state encompassing the land that Israel would be giving up.


It's also a bit premature to say that the speech "didn't accomplish anything" given that it's been one fucking day since he gave it. 

[Knight of Fools]

I'll concede to the second point. 

[nenjin]

You might as well concede the first too, that every American president has to address this issue during their presidency at least once. Does it really surprise you that the guy who pretty much put every issue on his to-do list didn't skip trying something unusual in the Israel-Palestinian issue? It seems more like you're trying to steer the conversation in the direction of ripping on the president, like the actual matter of substance isn't more important by comparison.

[Africa]

If you think the '67 war is an "old topic", then I honestly don't know what to say to you. It's a bit like saying the Korean War is an "old topic" on the Korean Peninsula or the Chinese Civil War is "old topic" in Taiwan and China.

A reversion to the pre-1967 borders has been a key demand from many states in the region as a necessary element of any two-state solution, with the Palestinian state encompassing the land that Israel would be giving up.

This

The 1967 war means everything it's not some old issue that he dredged up for no reason. Once again...if you knew anything about the middle east we wouldn't need to explain this.

Still kinda pointless though; everyone knows negotiations are a dead end.

[Knight of Fools]

Which is why there was no reason for the President to bring up the debate again.

As you mentioned, things were/are calming down along Israel's border - Maybe things are getting better.  Time is an important factor if you just leave something alone; if the USA can get over Japan stabbing us in the ribs at Pearl Harbor, and Japan can get over us dropping nuclear bombs on their cities, I think anyone can stop hating each other long enough to realize that, hey, being friends isn't so bad!

That's going to take some dramatic changes in attitudes on the part of the Middle-Easterners, Israelis and Pakistanis alike.  It's certainly not going to be easy, but encouraging the bad feelings isn't going to help a bit.

[nenjin]

Which is why there was no reason for the President to bring up the debate again.

The debate has never stopped. You obviously don't get that. And then you white wash your angst over the president having an opinion you don't like by drawing comparisons that don't track and shooting rainbows in every direction.

Try telling the Palestinians and the Israelis to get along. We defeated Japan, then modernized their whole damn society and left a few military bases to keep an eye on them. We didn't annex their island. Maybe that's why they learned to live with us.

[PTTG??]

More importantly, Israel is not the United states. They are separate countries. The citizens of Israel are not US citizens, and vice versa.

Israel and the United States are not the same country. The elected government of the US is not elected by and does not represent Israel. Israeli citizens do not pay US taxes. US citizens do not pay Israeli taxes. The US constitution does not mention Israel.

Israel has Israeli soldiers paid with Israeli tax revenue. These Israeli soldiers are not expected to defend the US.

Is my point becoming clear in any way?

You know what, no, it isn't. You'd think you'd have realized that the first time you felt it necessary to repost. If it didn't work the first time, it isn't going to work the third time.

I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO ISRAEL BECAUSE I AM NOT AN ISRAELI. UNLESS THEY BECOME AN OFFICIAL U.S. STATE, IT IS NOT THE  DUTY OF THE US GOVERNMENT TO CARE FOR IT.

[Knight of Fools]

Is PTTG?? the only one who agrees with me?  At least least he's not ignoring old posts I make and making generalizations about my most recent one.

Obama is welcome to his opinion.  I wish him well, and hope everything turns out dandy.  I don't think butting into these Middle East "negotiations" are going to help, though - Neither here at home or abroad.

Also, I never said the argument was over.  Quite the opposite.  Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Leafsnail]

Is PTTG?? the only one who agrees with me?  At least least he's not ignoring old posts I make and making generalizations about my most recent one.

I don't think he agrees with you.  If anything, Obama's speech is a move away from unconditional support of Israel.