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[Virex]

In any case, if you knew anything about Palestinians, you'd know that support for violence against Israel is so low that it's absurd to assert their state would turn into some kind of military launching pad, and if you knew anything about basic sociology, you'd know that if they had a free state, that support would become even less, not to mention how suicidal it would be. Abbas and Fayyad aren't stupid and hell, neither are Hamas' leaders.

I think you underestimate the power of a group that's armed to the teeth. Despite being massively unpopular, the Taliban held the whole of Afghanistan hostage with little more then what Hamas will be able to bring to the table. And then there's the liiiitle problem that the major supporters of Hamas don't feel anything for a democratic state and much more for a big crater where Israel currently is.

Terrorism has no universally agreed definition. I think there is a UN definition but its some what flawed if my memory serves me.

I don't think properly defining terrorism is morally justifiable, because you're essentially forcing people to stop to think of the cruelty that is being committed and instead do a cold, hard comparison to see if it is terrorism...

[Phmcw]

Yeah, yeah, anyway...


Obama is really scoring point with the European opinion there, as well as with the north African opinion, smooth diplomatic move. That will certainly reduce the anti American sentiment. Israel's abuse on Palestinian, now widely criticized in Europe, were put on the back of American, given that they seemed to always support Israel, no matter what happened.

Virex, you need more informations, because yours are outdated : I know poeple that have first hand account of the events taking place there and he situation is nowhere like what you're saying. Long story short the Israeli's abuse the Palestinian whenever they can, and the Palestinian respond with terrorism. Of course the Palestinians describe themselves as victims fighting back a bully and the Israeli's as innocent punishing a dangerous criminal who shall kill them given the chance. Both side fight heavily anyone who want peace.
Luckily there are numerous Palestinian and Israeli's who want peace, but they are picked on by extremists.

Israel is to blame right now, given that they are abusing their position of power, when they should use it to establish peace.
Obama is right in ordering hem to make peace and to make concessions.

Edit : as usual I used Israeli and Palestinian to design sometime a significant a part of their populations, all of them or the administration, depending of the context.

[Africa]

That's unfair.  Most people don't understand the scope and two-sidedness of the situation - It's plain ignorance if most of what you're saying is true, ignorance brought on by misinformation and smoke screens planted by others who aren't even Americans.  And you don't have to go throwing anti-biblical rhetoric into this.  Scripture may be used as an excuse for an action, but that action would have taken place regardless of whether the scripture existed in the first place.

Try and keep the focus on the Israeli Border thing and less on whether or not the bible is a fairy tale or not - It's clearly not part of the discussion.

I was referring to the Israeli right wing; it has everything to do with the Israeli border. Their insane determination to relive the Book of Joshua is a key part of the conflict.

remember Obama used, what i think was his first veto on the un security council to say the exact opposite to what hes now saying only a few months ago

Another good point. Not only was his speech actually very generous to Netanyahu's position, but when it came down to a choice between holding to his own country's stated position, and pissing away his credibility to appease a country that constantly bites the hand that feeds it, he still chose the second. He's not dumb, he just doesn't have any nuts.

[DJ]

What does USA gain from propping up Israel, and does it justify the enormous expenditure of taxpayer's money?

[Virex]

Mainly a stable, friendly democracy in a region otherwise controlled by anti-American rhetorics, infighting and untrustworthy regimes. Which is exactly why the speech comes right now, because Obama hopes he can appease the new regimes this way. Considering that the Egyptian regime seems to secretly support the Islamist extremists in getting rid of the Kopthics in their country, I don't know if this is such a good idea, but I'm not the president.

Luckily there are numerous Palestinian and Israeli's who want peace, but they are picked on by extremists.

Problem is that the extremists have so much power that for either side, backing down is going to give the extremists on the other side the chance to seize control and execute their agenda. In the case of the Palestinians backing down, that means more settlements. In the case of Israel backing down, well you catch my drift.

[DJ]

Don't you have Turkey for that? Propping up them would generate a lot less animosity in the Arab world.

[Africa]

Mainly a stable, friendly democracy in a region otherwise controlled by anti-American rhetorics, infighting and untrustworthy regimes.

But what does that gain us

[Phmcw]

Luckily there are numerous Palestinian and Israeli's who want peace, but they are picked on by extremists.

Problem is that the extremists have so much power that for either side, backing down is going to give the extremists on the other side the chance to seize control and excecute their agenda. In the case of the Palestinians backing down, that means more settlements. In the case of Israel backing down, well you catch my drift.

Not really : does the bombing deter the building of settlement? And does he building of settlement result in less bombing. But I Israel continue to oppress Israeli Arabs, I bet there will be more bombing.
I think the extremis doesn't want to back down because both side profit from it : as long as Israel oppress Palestinian, Hamas is sure to win, and as long as the Palestinian are a threat the hawk will stay in power.

[Africa]

But I Israel continue to oppress Israeli Arabs, I bet there will be more bombing.

Quick note: Israeli Arabs are ethnic Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship (i.e., theoretically the same rights as Jewish citizens, though in practice not quite). They're 20% of Israel's population. When people talk about "Palestinians" it usually doesn't include them; they usually mean the ones in Gaza, the WB, and sometimes the diaspora. In any case, they're not the ones being oppressed (unless lack of funding for schools and municipalities counts as oppression) and for the same reason they're not the ones shooting rockets. Case in point: You let people live normal lives -> they don't rise up against you.

[Zangi]

A better solution would be to find another place to live for the Palestinians, a place where they do have a future and a place where their leaders can't practice "Remote whack-a-mole" with missiles and school buses.

I await this solution with bated breath.  The land, funds, materials, and logistics needed to relocate and provide a place for each and every Palestinian.  Along with a country willing to take them in, even if someone else takes care of the rest...


The unreasonable hold power only cause their scapegoat is as unreasonable as them.

[PTTG??]

.

[Virex]

The Palestinian population is lower then the Israelite population and considering that most Palestinians are out of a job and don't have much anyway, moving them would be far less disrupting for the local economy.

A better solution would be to find another place to live for the Palestinians, a place where they do have a future and a place where their leaders can't practice "Remote whack-a-mole" with missiles and school buses.

I await this solution with bated breath.  The land, funds, materials, and logistics needed to relocate and provide a place for each and every Palestinian.  Along with a country willing to take them in, even if someone else takes care of the rest...


The unreasonable hold power only cause their scapegoat is as unreasonable as them.

It's only 4 million people. For reference, immigration to the US was 1 million per year in the last decade and the immigration to the EU was 3.7 million per year. And that is with the current, stringent immigration rules. If the countries that really want to do something about the problem would put an effort in it, the problem could be solved in less then a decade.

[Africa]

Do you seriously not see why ethnic cleansing MIGHT not be an effective (not to mention moral) "solution?"

[DJ]

It'd be cheapest to relocate them 6 feet downwards

[Zangi]

The Palestinian population is lower then the Israelite population and considering that most Palestinians are out of a job and don't have much anyway, moving them would be far less disrupting for the local economy.

A better solution would be to find another place to live for the Palestinians, a place where they do have a future and a place where their leaders can't practice "Remote whack-a-mole" with missiles and school buses.

I await this solution with bated breath.  The land, funds, materials, and logistics needed to relocate and provide a place for each and every Palestinian.  Along with a country willing to take them in, even if someone else takes care of the rest...


The unreasonable hold power only cause their scapegoat is as unreasonable as them.

It's only 4 million people. For reference, immigration to the US was 1 million per year in the last decade and the immigration to the EU was 3.7 million per year. And that is with the current, stringent immigration rules. If the countries that really want to do something about the problem would put an effort in it, the problem could be solved in less then a decade.

I'm sure there is a country out there that is so very eager to provide a place for 4 million uneducated/unemployed/poor people of a totally different custom/culture/language... or even a 1/10th of that.

The solution is to reward Israel for suppressing and expelling the Palestinians.
By actually moving the Palestinians out for them and at the same time, foot the costs associated with it. 

Because the Palestinians hate Israel, are bound to attack Israel and 'peace is impossible' with them.  A cycle of hate and fear that will never end unless 1 side ceases to be a presence.  Got it.