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[Africa]

I did not necessarily mean that the US support would falter voluntarily. Imagine we hit an even nastier economical crisis.

I was referring to Israelis actually. There's a few voice-in-the-wilderness commentators in the news but nobody ever listens to them, of course, just like in the Old Testament.

And yeah, the chance of scattered rocket attacks was the black humor I was going for...then again, it kind of sums of the weirdness of a place where people build houses on other people's houses.

[Knight of Fools]

This isn't intended for the OP, of course; anyone who in all seriousness can't distinguish between the Palestinian move toward statehood and some kind of terrorist plot against Israel isn't going to be able to take part in a reasonable discussion of this issue. But it should give some on-the-ground orientation for everybody else.

I'm a lot more open-minded when presenting my own and listening to other's opinions.  I kind of jumped into the discussion without really having a solid position on it.  Running on other people's arguments without knowing the whole story, I guess.  I welcome people to challenge what I say so that I can get a deeper understanding about everything that's going on; if I was wrong, I'm more than happy to say so and start being right.  Otherwise I'd be waddling around being wrong all the time, which sucks.  You don't have to group me with the rest of the "my opinion never changes" demographic of the internet. 

Thanks for the informative post, though.  I guess, like everything, it's pretty fuddled up by opinions, prejudices, and stuff nobody completely understands.  I'll look more into it some time.

[knaveofstaves]

Israel can't be influenced one way or another, so why not reach out to the opposition. I can definitely see this hurting Obama with Jewish voters come election though.

I imagine the politics of this are much clearer for Obama than this statement suggests. Jews in the United States are mainly left-wing Democrats, whose vote may be swayed by many issues, of which Israeli-American relations is only one. The hardcore American supporters of Israel are right-wing Republicans, mostly evangelical Christians who believe it is God's will for Jews to reclaim the Holy Land. They'll hate Obama for this but they hated him already anyway, so nothing lost.

I think the real takeaway from today, as summarized by NBC News, is that "President Obama's speech indicated not a shift in policy but in bluntness." Obama wants the same things the U.S. has always wanted, he's just saying out loud that Israel is a part of the problem -- new settlement building has long been an issue, and recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes didn't leave Israel looking too good, either.

There is some bravery in this -- Obama is scheduled to speak at AIPAC next week, and Netanyahu will be there. It's worth watching to see if Obama sticks to his guns.

[sluissa]

All I have to say it that it's about time.

[Virex]

Isn't demanding people to stop building settlements going directly against the right of people to settle where they want?

The most insane part of all this (well, ok, not the most insane at all. But AN insane part of this) is that presidents being "hard on Israel" or not being "friends of Israel" is in fact the best thing they could do for Israel. Israelis like to go on rants about how if there's a Palestinian state they'll be under rocket attack constantly and blah blah blah. Ok - maybe they will. There is a greater than zero chance of it. but that's certainly not an existential threat - Israel will survive. But what if they DON'T pull out of the West Bank? What if the occupation goes on forever? Then there is a 100% percent chance that Israel will not survive as a Jewish democratic state. Because before long there'll be more Arabs than Jews in Mandatory Palestine and when that happens, Israel will be just another South Africa.

So, Israel survives with a chance of scattered rocket attacks? Or Israel ceases to exist? Which one is better for Israel? Oddly, what the Israeli right will (repeatedly, often hysterically) try to tell you is that the best thing for Israel is what will in fact lead to the second alternative.

They're already constantly being attacked by rockets and suicide bombers. I fail to see how things would improve if the Palestians would be allowed to buy tanks and howitzers? Plus, rewarding terrorists with their own country (you can hardly deny that a significant amount of the future Palestinian politicians is currently very occupied with blowing up innocent Israelites Palestinians Civilians) isn't going to spell much good for Spain, Turkey and Iraq...

[Zangi]

Isn't demanding people to stop building settlements going directly against the right of people to settle where they want?
*snip*

Is it the wild west over there where you can actively support moving your own people and pushing out the locals?  In territory that isn't yours?

[ChairmanPoo]

Israel's settlements are a gross violation of international law.

[scriver]

Isn't demanding people to stop building settlements going directly against the right of people to settle where they want?

Yeah, that's totally a right. Especially when other people live, farm and/or have cattle/animals where you want to settle. I mean, if I where to show up at your doorstep, force you and your family away from your lands at gunpoint and then start building my own buildings there, that would be totally okay, right? 'Cause I have a right to settle wherever I want?

(ninja'd about this, I see..)

I fail to see how things would improve if the Palestians would be allowed to buy tanks and howitzers?

One point for allowing a real army is that Hamas an company would come off as Palestine's only defenders and last hope any more. And weakening the support for Hamas should really be Israel' main concern if they want peace. Right now they're making the terrorists and extremists stronger by the day.

Plus, rewarding terrorists with their own country (you can hardly deny that a significant amount of the future Palestinian politicians is currently very occupied with blowing up innocent Israelites Palestinians Civilians) isn't going to spell much good for Spain, Turkey and Iraq...

Yeah, just like after WW2, when the Allies awarded those damn French terrorists with their own country.

But jokes aside, it's already their country. Israel is occupying it. Stoping the occupation and starting to build peaceful relations in spite of Hamas and other extremists assholes is the only way, other than genocide or mass-exodus, to create peace.

[LoSboccacc]

in spite of Hamas and other extremists assholes

problem is, those extremists have supports only because of Israeli aggressive land grab.

Hamas attack was bad and wrong and all, but so was the Israeli unlawful embargo. Only that news give most of the time just half of the notice.

The problem here is that they're *both* wrong, but resolutions are hard because hate is deeply rooted in the populace: it is no more a treaty, but a mindset to change

[scriver]

Did you really read my post, or are you just building upon it and it's a misunderstanding on my behalf that you're arguing against it? Because I get the impression that you are, but you're basically just repeating my point.

[Phmcw]

Isn't demanding people to stop building settlements going directly against the right of people to settle where they want?

What right? You don't have the right to settle on a land that is not yours.

The problem here is that the Palestinians were wronged by the creation of Israel, that more than sixty year of realpolitic have passed since, and that they have to work on peace now.
But hard line of both camp are unwilling to end war, which is only logical given that war keep them in power.
Obama's move is right : the international community must make both side understand that the more they fight, the more they loose.

[LoSboccacc]

Did you really read my post, or are you just building upon it and it's a misunderstanding on my behalf that you're arguing against it? Because I get the impression that you are, but you're basically just repeating my point.

building upon the post and adding social problems to political ones.

oh, and it's not like your point is something sacred that could not get expanded or discussed. just chillax, shall we?

[scriver]

You're overreacting to my reaction 

I was just wondering in case I needed to clarify myself, as the situation confused me a little. I did not mean to come of as coarse or annoyed in my reply.

[LoSboccacc]

sorry, it's quite hard to get a tone off a forum. my bad and apologies
 

[Nikov]

The Obama presidency has just jumped the shark. I still cannot comprehend this speech, and if he came out declaring it was Defcon Six and all of our nuclear weapons are being mothballed by executive order, I think I could take that in stride.