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[ArKFallen]

I understand what the analogy says, but not what kind of real world situations it applies to.

All applications are kinda left handed, and require some serious bridging (the main purpose was to provoke thought).
Say if you lived in a town/city or whatever and there are 2 or more groups in force. Being a new arrival you ask many people what each one stands for and they all give similar and generally positive responses about a certain group. You become generally confused and continue your investigation on who seems to have the moral high ground. Others join you in your search, and before the end the other groups see you as a threat and attempt to force you to become neutral. The issue would be you already are neutral so you'd have to pick who to go with. In the end your decision is yours alone.
Or take perhaps a (probably self-proclaimed) prophet begins prophesying and you begin to follow the prophet because you agree with them(gender neutral pronoun). Later your beliefs are called into question, and you can see why when they do. The holes in the prophet's teachings seem obvious, but you still agree with the underlying message. Again the decision is yours alone.
Whenever you learn or figure something out and ask others your new beliefs will be called into question after probing. To me the analogy represents our limited and divided perceptions. You don't know if anything is absolute and sooner or later you will face that fact or it'll face you. The analogy was intentionally vague and open to interpretation so as to be universally applicable.

I'm so sorry lemon, I messed up the url tags
I'll fix that now.

[freeformschooler]

-snip-

You're right that your family has suffered terrible things, and I'm glad that you've moved past an interpretation of a religion (or, hell, depending on the particular religion, the actual thing) that led to that. But your genuinely horrible experience doesn't undermine the genuinely wonderful experience another has had, anymore than theirs undermines yours; somebody would be just as wrong to insist to you that religion is inherently good as you are to insist that it is inherently evil. Religion was not what led to those events; it was the weaknesses, stupidity, and general asshattery of the people that actually did it, or the people that convinced those people that their actions were acceptable or necessary. Not the concept of religion itself.

That you've experienced a religious organization so terrible reflects on religion as a whole to about the same extent that the KKK reflects on the concept of clubs as a whole, and while I apologize for being so blunt about what is such a nasty topic for you to have to think about, the fact that you're posting here makes me hope that you're willing to put more thought into your beliefs than the religious extremists that reject atheism for its supposed godless, immoral nature.

Thank you Bauglir for being a sensible, reasonable person. I believe that it's also awful that Nadaka and his/her family have suffered those things as a cause of religion, but letting past experiences taint your logic (as opposed to tainting your personal beliefs) is not the kind of thing I expect to find at Bay 12. Nadaka seems to be quite a poor soul who's understandably angry and spiteful toward religion. I can understand that. If I had been through the same things, I would be too, probably. However, if I were to let that anger and spite cloud my logical thinking, I would just like to say I would like someone from these forums to personally come and slap in the face a few times.

[Africa]

Africa:
1: really? provide one sliver of evidence for the existence of god.
2: brain washing is used in every church, period. Memorization, repetition, reinforcement, Repeat. Its in your prayers, you hymns and your verses. Fear of damnation ass well as ostracism from religious community is used by nearly every christian church. Violence is far, far more prevalent than you can imagine. It happens right under your nose and most people never notice it.
3: It doesn't except that nearly when talking about religion I don't really care about the odd benign religions the exist as outliers.
4: it is a bare assertion, but its one well documented and supported from other sources.

1. God doesn't exist, but that's not what I said.
2. If you consider memorization, repetition and reinforcement to be "brainwashing" then sure, but then basically all of society is constantly brainwashing itself and each other at all times. And I would love to know some statistics about this alleged violence and ostracism that's festering everywhere.
3. There are some pretty major religions that that doesn't apply to tbh but I'm not surprised you aren't aware of them.
4. Which, I see, you weren't able to produce any of. I'm impressed.

[Ampersand]

I will quote here C. S. Lewis, from the Screwtape letters. A turn of phrase of his that I genuinely agree with.

"He doesn't think of doctrines as primarily "true" of "false", but as "academic" or "practical", "outworn" or "contemporary", "conventional" or "ruthless". Jargon, not argument, is your best ally in keeping him from the Church. Don't waste time trying to make him think that materialism is true! Make him think it is strong, or stark, or courageous—that it is the philosophy of the future. That's the sort of thing he cares about."

The Screwtape letters is a work of Satire, written from the point of view of one demon to another, which intends to tempt a man away from his religion. Lewis' broader point here is what I agree with. People will have endless and pointless arguments over where something is good or bad, without ever even so much as thinking about discussing whether it is true or false. Both sides, in this particular argument, ought take heed of that.

You know where I stand if you've been in these sorts of threads before, I'm not going to bother going there again.

[Leafsnail]

(snip for size)

I... suppose.  I'd still say I'm not entirely sure how it applies to religion, though - these all seem to be binary, 50/50 choices with no particular evidence on either side wheras religious belief tends to be far more complex than that.

The Screwtape letters is a work of Satire, written from the point of view of one demon to another, which intends to tempt a man away from his religion. Lewis' broader point here is what I agree with. People will have endless and pointless arguments over where something is good or bad, without ever even so much as thinking about discussing whether it is true or false. Both sides, in this particular argument, ought take heed of that.

I guess it's because there aren't so many places to go with "true or false".  I personally would say there are an infinite number of possibilities out there, and that religions each merely highlight one of those possibilities, and that doing so doesn't make that possibility any more likely than the others, even if technically it can't be disproved.  I'd need a virtually infinite amount of brainpower and time to adequately contemplate every possibility, so I stick to stuff which has evidence for it or which is at least clearly useful in providing predictions.

...And then that's about it.  There isn't really much of an argument to be had beyond that.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I feel the need to point out that even though, no, religion isn't inherently evil, it has served as a breeding ground for unspeakable atrocity over thousands of years. Stagnant pools of water aren't good or evil either, but they serve to let mosquitoes breed and spread malaria all the same. I can't just ignore that, no matter what kind of happiness some people may have found in religion.

[Africa]

Another one:

 Cars are used for such horrendous things! They can be used for hit and runs! They are used to transport illegal drugs and weapons across borders. They are used for getaways from crimes! They make people fat and lazy. They cause countless deaths in auto accidents! How can you not see how evil cars are? Whatever good cars could be used for, could never balance out this evil!

[Nadaka]

Thank you Bauglir for being a sensible, reasonable person. I believe that it's also awful that Nadaka and his/her family have suffered those things as a cause of religion, but letting past experiences taint your logic (as opposed to tainting your personal beliefs) is not the kind of thing I expect to find at Bay 12. Nadaka seems to be quite a poor soul who's understandably angry and spiteful toward religion. I can understand that. If I had been through the same things, I would be too, probably. However, if I were to let that anger and spite cloud my logical thinking, I would just like to say I would like someone from these forums to personally come and slap in the face a few times.

Explain to me how my experiences have "tainted" and "clouded" my logic? I want to be sure I am not misunderstanding you.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Another one:

 Cars are used for such horrendous things! They can be used for hit and runs! They are used to transport illegal drugs and weapons across borders. They are used for getaways from crimes! They make people fat and lazy. They cause countless deaths in auto accidents! How can you not see how evil cars are? Whatever good cars could be used for, could never balance out this evil!

Utter devotion to cars isn't taught to children, nor is submission to the will of Nissan ideologically ingraned in people. You probably won't be commiting genocide in the name of Ford any time soon, either. Like I said, religion isn't evil, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to say that it isn't causing more harm than good, intentions nonwithstanding.

[Africa]

Another one:

 Cars are used for such horrendous things! They can be used for hit and runs! They are used to transport illegal drugs and weapons across borders. They are used for getaways from crimes! They make people fat and lazy. They cause countless deaths in auto accidents! How can you not see how evil cars are? Whatever good cars could be used for, could never balance out this evil!

Utter devotion to cars isn't taught to children, nor is submission to the will of Nissan ideologically ingraned in people. You probably won't be commiting genocide in the name of Ford any time soon, either. Like I said, religion isn't evil, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to say that it isn't causing more harm than good, intentions nonwithstanding.

You're nitpicking. The point is, cars and religion can both be used for good, evil, or just pedestrian everyday purposes, and the latter is by far the most common, followed by the first, then the second. Neither is inherently good or evil, it's what you do with them.

[Strife26]

Thank you Bauglir for being a sensible, reasonable person. I believe that it's also awful that Nadaka and his/her family have suffered those things as a cause of religion, but letting past experiences taint your logic (as opposed to tainting your personal beliefs) is not the kind of thing I expect to find at Bay 12. Nadaka seems to be quite a poor soul who's understandably angry and spiteful toward religion. I can understand that. If I had been through the same things, I would be too, probably. However, if I were to let that anger and spite cloud my logical thinking, I would just like to say I would like someone from these forums to personally come and slap in the face a few times.

Explain to me how my experiences have "tainted" and "clouded" my logic? I want to be sure I am not misunderstanding you.

I'm not even sure where to start, other than telling you that you're just as biased against religion as I am against Iranian copper bowl makers.

[Glowcat]

You're nitpicking. The point is, cars and religion can both be used for good, evil, or just pedestrian everyday purposes, and the latter is by far the most common, followed by the first, then the second. Neither is inherently good or evil, it's what you do with them.

Cars are a tool.
Religions are a belief.

If you think of religion in the same way as a tool then you don't understand religion.

[Africa]

You're nitpicking. The point is, cars and religion can both be used for good, evil, or just pedestrian everyday purposes, and the latter is by far the most common, followed by the first, then the second. Neither is inherently good or evil, it's what you do with them.

Cars are a tool.
Religions are a belief.

If you think of religion in the same way as a tool then you don't understand religion.

Once again, missing the point of the analogy.

[Criptfeind]

Beliefs are sociological tools. If you do not think of beliefs as types of tools you do not understand basic sociology.

[ArKFallen]

@Leafsnail:The Watch Carvings was in response to the claims of no proof of god. One of the things the Watch Carvings pointed out was the overall fault in human perception and reality. The guy could be shifting through lucid hallucinations or maybe not. Whichever way he decides to believe in will likely become his perception of reality, thus moving him away from some and closer to others (relationship and similarity wise).
But the fact I just attempted to explain another part of a potentially limitless analogy makes me wonder: What all conclusions did you draw from The Watch Carvings?
The 2nd analogy expands on the fact each person sees things differently.
And the 3rd leads on about the uncertainty of the future when making decisions, some oversights in choosing, and other such things.

Wow. That seems oddly appropriate to both politics and religion. I guess the principles are similar.