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[Criptfeind]

Where in his post does it say this? Just because some crazy people decided to start killing in the name of a religion, doesn't mean the entire religion is bad. That's like saying that there's a fly in your soup so all soup is disgusting now.

Thats my point.

[lemon10]

Where in his post does it say this? Just because some crazy people decided to start killing in the name of a religion, doesn't mean the entire religion is bad. That's like saying that there's a fly in your soup so all soup is disgusting now.

Thats my point.

See: Witch Hunts, Crusades, Jihad, Thirty year war, Inquisition, Taiping Rebellion
See: Institutionalized stoning for (minor) "crimes".

Oh, and one more thing: Don't bring up Scientology; It's not a religion, it's a business.

Its both. Its a religion because people believe it. Its a business because thats how the people at the top are running it.

2: Says you. Closest thing I've ever had to be physically forced into a church service is the last time that I guy driving by me on the street asked me if I'd like to join him for a service. See also non-rebuttal points one through three. Religion provides comfort and certainty for people.

Obviously you haven't in the same way that I haven't been sold into slavery, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't/doesn't happen.  but if your saying religious persecution hasn't existed in the past (always by other religions amusingly enough), then you are wrong.

[Africa]

And it really staggers me how ignorant you are being. Religion is clearly not a good thing to anyone who would look.

1: it has no basis in reality.

What are you talking about

It's based on plenty of things that clearly exist

2: it relies on brain washing, fear and actual physical harm to spread itself and eliminate competitors.

I'm not sure if you think that the medieval Catholic church and wacko ranch-cults are the be all and end all of religion, but if not, then it would make no sense for you to say this.

3: the most popular religions glorify deities that are amoral at best and absolute evil at worst.

And what does that have to do with religion as a thing

4: it hinders peoples ability to think rationally and make independent decisions.

I don't even know how to refute this because it's nothing but a bare assertion

5: it is used to disenfranchise billions of people for the profit of a few.

Once again you're assuming that the Catholic church in the middle ages exemplifies all religion. Also, the free market is used for the same thing. Does that mean the right to trade goods freely is inherently evil?

[Criptfeind]

See: Witch Hunts, Crusades, Jihad, Thirty year war, Inquisition, Taiping Rebellion
See: Institutionalized stoning for (minor) "crimes".

Once again. Politics using religion.

My point.

Also, all these are a long time ago. Can you please currently point out something now that invalidates everything good religion does?

[Nadaka]

Religion is not an innately evil thing.

One: anything (good, evil or moral) can be used as a scapegoat
Example: democratic government -> French Revolutionary Terror period
Example: Betterment of the human race -> Social Darwinism
General: "<positive effect> justifies the means"
     Saving souls justifies being a dick
Negative truth: Religion may be used for evil purposes

Just because something can occasionally be used as a scapegoat does not mean that it does not cause problems. Religion definitely causes a lot of problems, and evil. You can not rationally deny that.

Two: Religion provides people with a certainty to life

It provides a false impression of certainty, not actual certainty. That is harm, not good.

That morality has an actual reason rather than being the result of random chance (or random chance applied to competition)

What? Real morality is derived perfectly from reason and compassion, not faith and tradition encumbered by thousands of years of atrocities.

That there is something more to existence after death

Is there? Nothing rational shows that there is on a personal level. Meanwhile, in the real world we can focus on our lives now and the lives of generations to come after our death.

That there is a purpose for humanity and for specific humans

Is there? You are talking about predestination, the removal of will. That is a bad thing. Our purpose is the one we make for ourselves.

That the final victory of good over evil is ensured.

Thus ensuring that the good will never work hard enough to actually overcome evil. that is again, a bad thing. Evil will win unless good stands up and fights for what is right.

Specifc Rebutal

1: Says you, arguing with belief is a pointless endeavor. See also "mystery of faith"

Says me because I am right. The existance of magic, gods (or any one god over all the others) and an afterlife is an extra ordinary claim and requires extra ordinary evidence to even be considered. Yet no such evidence exists.

2: Says you. Closest thing I've ever had to be physically forced into a church service is the last time that I guy driving by me on the street asked me if I'd like to join him for a service. See also non-rebuttal points one through three. Religion provides comfort and certainty for people.

You are honestly telling me you are ignorant of the millions of people who have died as a direct result of religion? I have very personal experience with it. I have 2 dead siblings, a brother beaten deaf, a sister so abused she sterilized herself to save her potential children from being born into a world so horrible, another sister abused so horribly that she is terrified of even talking to people. All thanks to the religion I was born in and brainwashed to believe absolutely as a child. In addition to the shit I lived through, I also got strangled by a preacher for asking to many questions. This is the shit I don't talk about or think about because I feel rage so powerful that I would have to be a saint to keep it from taking over. Fortunately, I AM morally superior, in no small part because I reject faith completely. So shut the fuck up because you don't know what evil really is until you experience it first hand.  SO DAMN RIGHT SAYS ME.

3: Ascribing terms like amoral or evil to omniscient beings is difficult at best and pointless at worst. Whole 'nother discussion, really.

No, not really. Some things are amoral and evil, the bible clearly describes god doing these things. There is no room for argument. The god worshiped by all Christians Jews and Muslims is evil, even if they choose to be ignorant of it.

4: Not specific to Religion. Any type of opinion does this.

It isn't specific to religion, but it is an integral and inseparable part of it. And no, not any type of opinion does this.

5: Really? See non-rebuttal point one as well as "conspiracy theory." Unless it's supposed to be about authoritarian theocracies, in which case just see non-rebuttal point one.

Africa:
1: really? provide one sliver of evidence for the existence of god.
2: brain washing is used in every church, period. Memorization, repetition, reinforcement, Repeat. Its in your prayers, you hymns and your verses. Fear of damnation ass well as ostracism from religious community is used by nearly every christian church. Violence is far, far more prevalent than you can imagine. It happens right under your nose and most people never notice it.
3: It doesn't except that nearly when talking about religion I don't really care about the odd benign religions the exist as outliers.
4: it is a bare assertion, but its one well documented and supported from other sources.

Criptfeind: yep. Religion is still doing horrible, horrible things. All the time, all over the world. It far, far outweighs the little good things that it does here and there.

[Criptfeind]

Really? Like what? Anything that is Religion and not politics disguised as religion?

[Jackrabbit]

Sites like this bother me, because I see no point in trying to disprove Religion, but rather think that we should try and fight injustices committed in the name of Religion. Half the people I know are religious and they're jolly good people, but there's an AIDS epidemic in Africa and children are being molested and people are getting away with it. Surely fighting this is more important? Fighting it by combating the people, not the idea? Because trying to disprove God isn't going to stop people doing horrible things in the name of X.

To save people from evil. Religion is the source of a huge number of bad things in the world. It is evil, it is wrong. It would be unethical to not take stand against religion. I can't prove that any given deity does not exist, but I damn well can prove that most of them would not be worthy of worship if they did.

Besides the whole unhealthy worshiping evil part, faith in religion itself is bad regardless of what religion is followed. Religion is fundamentally a form of governance that externalizes the threat of punishment and the promise of reward to false supernatural effects. It is a way to placate and control people without making a real investment in their well being. This exacerbates the corruption and perversion the political and social processes that could otherwise be used to make the world a better place.

I'd completely disagree with you there - having faith in religion is almost never a bad thing, as just talking to a congregation will attest. There are bad things that happen and people use religion as an excuse, and that must be combated. There are bad things that happen because parts of the religion do not translate to the 21st century, and that must be combated. But believing in a god, and/or that there's life after death, and going to church every Sunday, or praying five times a day, is frankly a boon to people who find worth in that sort of thing. Combating Religion as a whole? Count me out. Combating things people do? Absolutely.

[Bauglir]

2: Says you. Closest thing I've ever had to be physically forced into a church service is the last time that I guy driving by me on the street asked me if I'd like to join him for a service. See also non-rebuttal points one through three. Religion provides comfort and certainty for people.

You are honestly telling me you are ignorant of the millions of people who have died as a direct result of religion? I have very personal experience with it. I have 2 dead siblings, a brother beaten deaf, a sister so abused she sterilized herself to save her potential children from being born into a world so horrible, another sister abused so horribly that she is terrified of even talking to people. All thanks to the religion I was born in and brainwashed to believe absolutely as a child. In addition to the shit I lived through, I also got strangled by a preacher for asking to many questions. This is the shit I don't talk about or think about because I feel rage so powerful that I would have to be a saint to keep it from taking over. Fortunately, I AM morally superior, in no small part because I reject faith completely. So shut the fuck up because you don't know what evil really is until you experience it first hand.  SO DAMN RIGHT SAYS ME.

You're right that your family has suffered terrible things, and I'm glad that you've moved past an interpretation of a religion (or, hell, depending on the particular religion, the actual thing) that led to that. But your genuinely horrible experience doesn't undermine the genuinely wonderful experience another has had, anymore than theirs undermines yours; somebody would be just as wrong to insist to you that religion is inherently good as you are to insist that it is inherently evil. Religion was not what led to those events; it was the weaknesses, stupidity, and general asshattery of the people that actually did it, or the people that convinced those people that their actions were acceptable or necessary. Not the concept of religion itself.

That you've experienced a religious organization so terrible reflects on religion as a whole to about the same extent that the KKK reflects on the concept of clubs as a whole, and while I apologize for being so blunt about what is such a nasty topic for you to have to think about, the fact that you're posting here makes me hope that you're willing to put more thought into your beliefs than the religious extremists that reject atheism for its supposed godless, immoral nature.

[ArKFallen]

Whoa. Less than a day and it's gotten this intense. Now where to start?

2: Says you. Closest thing I've ever had to be physically forced into a church service is the last time that I guy driving by me on the street asked me if I'd like to join him for a service. See also non-rebuttal points one through three. Religion provides comfort and certainty for people.

You are honestly telling me you are ignorant of the millions of people who have died as a direct result of religion? I have very personal experience with it. I have 2 dead siblings, a brother beaten deaf, a sister so abused she sterilized herself to save her potential children from being born into a world so horrible, another sister abused so horribly that she is terrified of even talking to people. All thanks to the religion I was born in and brainwashed to believe absolutely as a child. In addition to the shit I lived through, I also got strangled by a preacher for asking to many questions. This is the shit I don't talk about or think about because I feel rage so powerful that I would have to be a saint to keep it from taking over. Fortunately, I AM morally superior, in no small part because I reject faith completely. So shut the fuck up because you don't know what evil really is until you experience it first hand.  SO DAMN RIGHT SAYS ME.

Okay that right there shows obvious and unavoidable bias. If it didn't that'd make you uncaring or a monster.You may be right, you may be wrong, but bias is bias. Bias breeds the kind of thing organized religion can be. Unsensable, Foolishness, Violence, Abuse, Massacre, Slaughter. That kind of abuse of moral high ground is exactly what you show you're fighting, while proclaiming moral high ground. Pride is called one of the "Seven Deadly Sins" for a reason, and proclamation of moral high ground is an indication.

3: Ascribing terms like amoral or evil to omniscient beings is difficult at best and pointless at worst. Whole 'nother discussion, really.

No, not really. Some things are amoral and evil, the bible clearly describes god doing these things. There is no room for argument. The god worshiped by all Christians Jews and Muslims is evil, even if they choose to be ignorant of it.

New Testament. I've read less than half, but it shows it in a whole new light. Followers, especially Zealots, can be more ruthless than any god ever recorded or worshiped. These "Zealots" don't even need religion to be fervent, raise them on business etiquette and you may end up with the Corporate Monster. Now remember I don't even particularly like religion, but this is toeing the Troll Line.

I'd completely disagree with you there - having faith in religion is almost never a bad thing, as just talking to a congregation will attest.

Now there is somewhere you don't want to go unless only as another source. The difference between a cult and a religion is one has more concentrated Zealotry. If you happen to base your choice of joining a group you may be ensnared in a cult by the congregation. While this is often not the case it is important to publicly recognize that such actions could be harmful.

That you've experienced a religious organization so terrible reflects on religion as a whole to about the same extent that the KKK reflects on the concept of clubs as a whole, and while I apologize for being so blunt about what is such a nasty topic for you to have to think about it, the fact that you're posting here makes me hope that you're willing to put more thought into your beliefs than the religious extremists that reject atheism for its supposed godless, immoral nature.

I endorse this statement.


I've also seen posts that touch on lack of proof of said beings. I will respond with this:

• You are walking down a street, until someone stops you and hands you a watch.
• The watch face has "Left" engraved into it over and over.
• You go on with your day, the only inconsistencies being that the watch face engravings seem to change position when your not looking.
• After copious photography to check on this mystery, you find that the engravings truly are moving.
• You show your findings to a resident physicist and a watchmaker.
• The physicist tells you the photos are all the same and to seek medical attention, while the watchmaker attests with you.
• Scared you show everyone you know and the amount who see and believe are around half, and those who don't are half.
• The evidence you see with your own eyes and those of others suggests that you are right, but also that you are insane.
• Whose proof is more valid? Which proofs matter more?

Edit: I screwed up the Insert Quote while replying and accidentally put Lemon10 instead of Nadaka. I'm sorry.

[Leafsnail]

...I thought the point of faith was to believe without evidence, anyway?

Although I'd be interested in hearing more detail on the watch carvings analogy.  What kind of evidence are you referring to?

[ArKFallen]

...I thought the point of faith was to believe without evidence, anyway?

Although I'd be interested in hearing more detail on the watch carvings analogy.  What kind of evidence are you referring to?

Believing without evidence is one of the paths you could end up taking after "The Watch Carvings"(I/We dub thee! ).
Analogies like The Watch Carvings can be taken multitudes of ways, and the only one way to take it wrong is without contemplation.
As for evidence: Others have seen exactly what you have seen while you were with them. That is evidence and a reason to believe. Different people saw nothing and that is a reason to not believe.

[Leafsnail]

As for evidence: Others have seen exactly what you have seen while you were with them. That is evidence and a reason to believe. Different people saw nothing and that is a reason to not believe.

Again, I'd be interested to hear specific examples.

...Although on a much less serious note, I think God's being quite unfair if He gives evidence of His existence to some people and none at all to others .

[ArKFallen]

As for evidence: Others have seen exactly what you have seen while you were with them. That is evidence and a reason to believe. Different people saw nothing and that is a reason to not believe.

Again, I'd be interested to hear specific examples.

It is referring to the people who do and don't see the carving shifts. On one hand you have consistent testimony proving that you are indeed not crazy. On the other hand there are people also with consistent testimony that you are actually seeing things. I thought it was pretty self explanatory, but if it's not I could edit the post for consistency's sake.

...Although on a much less serious note, I think God's being quite unfair if He gives evidence of His existence to some people and none at all to others .

Heh heh, yeah

[Leafsnail]

I understand what the analogy says, but not what kind of real world situations it applies to.

[lemon10]

2: Says you. Closest thing I've ever had to be physically forced into a church service is the last time that I guy driving by me on the street asked me if I'd like to join him for a service. See also non-rebuttal points one through three. Religion provides comfort and certainty for people.

You are honestly telling me you are ignorant of the millions of people who have died as a direct result of religion? I have very personal experience with it. I have 2 dead siblings, a brother beaten deaf, a sister so abused she sterilized herself to save her potential children from being born into a world so horrible, another sister abused so horribly that she is terrified of even talking to people. All thanks to the religion I was born in and brainwashed to believe absolutely as a child. In addition to the shit I lived through, I also got strangled by a preacher for asking to many questions. This is the shit I don't talk about or think about because I feel rage so powerful that I would have to be a saint to keep it from taking over. Fortunately, I AM morally superior, in no small part because I reject faith completely. So shut the fuck up because you don't know what evil really is until you experience it first hand.  SO DAMN RIGHT SAYS ME.

Okay that right there shows obvious and unavoidable bias. If it didn't that'd make you uncaring or a monster.You may be right, you may be wrong, but bias is bias. Bias breeds the kind of thing organized religion can be. Unsensable, Foolishness, Violence, Abuse, Massacre, Slaughter. That kind of abuse of moral high ground is exactly what you show you're fighting, while proclaiming moral high ground. Pride is called one of the "Seven Deadly Sins" for a reason, and proclamation of moral high ground is an indication.

3: Ascribing terms like amoral or evil to omniscient beings is difficult at best and pointless at worst. Whole 'nother discussion, really.

No, not really. Some things are amoral and evil, the bible clearly describes god doing these things. There is no room for argument. The god worshiped by all Christians Jews and Muslims is evil, even if they choose to be ignorant of it.

New Testament. I've read less than half, but it shows it in a whole new light. Followers, especially Zealots, can be more ruthless than any god ever recorded or worshiped. These "Zealots" don't even need religion to be fervent, raise them on business etiquette and you may end up with the Corporate Monster. Now remember I don't even particularly like religion, but this is toeing the Troll Line.

Not quite sure why you said you were quoting me, since i didn't say either of those things, Nadaka did.