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[GlyphGryph]

It's not like swinging your weapon twice to kill a zombie is a huge time investment. Demon eyes have a hard time hitting you if you keep moving, and fairly easy to jump over them, zombies aren't too hard to leap over either. In caves it's a bit more of a problem.

No argument here. I don't mind traveling and fighting and interruptions the way it is in Terrarria (though more danger would be nice). Its the whole "oh we should make it so one out of a thousand zombies will drop the key you need to open the chest you just found" proposal that kicked this off, not having to fight enemies as we travel.

I don't think it's fair to call fighting battles from A to B "grinding". Otherwise all games with random encounters is considered grinding.

Being forced to fight those battles because the variety of other options given to you means you won't be strong enough to finish the level IS, though. That's the difference between a game like Fallout (where running away from every random encounter is a viable strategy that will not noticeably weaken your character) and Final Fantasy (where you often have to take laps around a dungeon a couple times to accumulate enough experience to have a chance at defeating the boss. Well, I did anyways, most because I put off grinding whenever possible).

In Fallout, the random battles are not frequent and not vital to the characters progression. They were also, often, dangerous challenges. And when they stopped being so, you were rewarded with the option of skills and abilities that would let you avoid them completely. It is very possible to have random battles that are not grindy in the slightest, it's been done. Final Fantasy games have grind as a central component of their reward mechanism, however, so their random battles are notably grindy. Game-forced grinding is still grinding, and all the Final Fantasy games (and many JRPGs in general) had plenty of "You MUST kill 200 enemies before here and the end of the area to defeat the boss, unless you've spent extra time grinding somewhere else". As I said, it wasn't terrible, but you can't say they had a policy of "no grind". It's absurd. At best, they simply didn't care.

[Neonivek]

It's not like swinging your weapon twice to kill a zombie is a huge time investment

Heck with the right set up... your not even bothered no matter how many zombies there are. As they really arn't a problem.

[The Merchant Of Menace]

Being forced to fight those battles because the variety of other options given to you means you won't be strong enough to finish the level IS, though. That's the difference between a game like Fallout (where running away from every random encounter is a viable strategy that will not noticeably weaken your character) and Final Fantasy (where you often have to take laps around a dungeon a couple times to accumulate enough experience to have a chance at defeating the boss. Well, I did anyways, most because I put off grinding whenever possible).

In Fallout, the random battles are not frequent and not vital to the characters progression. They were also, often, dangerous challenges. And when they stopped being so, you were rewarded with the option of skills and abilities that would let you avoid them completely. It is very possible to have random battles that are not grindy in the slightest, it's been done. Final Fantasy games have grind as a central component of their reward mechanism, however, so their random battles are notably grindy. Game-forced grinding is still grinding, and all the Final Fantasy games (and many JRPGs in general) had plenty of "You MUST kill 200 enemies before here and the end of the area to defeat the boss, unless you've spent extra time grinding somewhere else". As I said, it wasn't terrible, but you can't say they had a policy of "no grind". It's absurd. At best, they simply didn't care.

So you've chosen to completely ignore the fact that I pointedly said I was able to finish all of the Final Fantasy games I'd played without doing this?
All you need is the right equipment and strategy, protip, it's a boss, it's supposed to be difficult.

[SirAaronIII]

Next, make out and make a gay porn movie and sell it online.

Okay, this is kind of old but lolwut? Am I missing something here?

[Soulwynd]

Next, make out and make a gay porn movie and sell it online.

Okay, this is kind of old but lolwut? Am I missing something here?

Only two guys with different opinions going at each other in a sort of friendly manner and a few people lacking the ability to ignore stuff going crazy about them, telling them to stop and make up.

[SirAaronIII]

Upon closer inspection, yeah. But my mind was like "lolgaypornwhat" so I had to ask.

Okay, that's not exactly what I meant...

[Soulwynd]

It's okay, Terraria allows for same sex marriage.

[Haspen]

It's okay, Terraria allows for same sex marriage.

Marry me then

[dragonshardz]

Being forced to fight those battles because the variety of other options given to you means you won't be strong enough to finish the level IS, though. That's the difference between a game like Fallout (where running away from every random encounter is a viable strategy that will not noticeably weaken your character) and Final Fantasy (where you often have to take laps around a dungeon a couple times to accumulate enough experience to have a chance at defeating the boss. Well, I did anyways, most because I put off grinding whenever possible).

In Fallout, the random battles are not frequent and not vital to the characters progression. They were also, often, dangerous challenges. And when they stopped being so, you were rewarded with the option of skills and abilities that would let you avoid them completely. It is very possible to have random battles that are not grindy in the slightest, it's been done. Final Fantasy games have grind as a central component of their reward mechanism, however, so their random battles are notably grindy. Game-forced grinding is still grinding, and all the Final Fantasy games (and many JRPGs in general) had plenty of "You MUST kill 200 enemies before here and the end of the area to defeat the boss, unless you've spent extra time grinding somewhere else". As I said, it wasn't terrible, but you can't say they had a policy of "no grind". It's absurd. At best, they simply didn't care.

So you've chosen to completely ignore the fact that I pointedly said I was able to finish all of the Final Fantasy games I'd played without doing this?
All you need is the right equipment and strategy, protip, it's a boss, it's supposed to be difficult.

Difficult != one hit kill. If the boss is orders of magnitude more powerful than the player character, then no amount of strategy and equipment will save your ass. I played a FF game wherein I got to the first boss and 2/3 people were instakilled. I'd use Phoenix Down and they'd get back up just in time to die again.

[Sean Mirrsen]

A real, true difficult boss may still have attacks that instakill a party member or cause massive (potentially lethal) damage to everyone at once. Bosses like these are usually made easier to fight with prior grinding, but are by no means impossible.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen though. If a boss you reach as a matter of course, without sequence breaking, mops the floor with your party in a couple of rounds, then it's a flaw in the game's design. Forcing the player to muck around just trying to level up, to have enough health to survive the mandatory boss fight, is poor design.

It's funnier when it's a random boss or miniboss that does it though. Like if you meet a few small worms in Phantasy Star IV and let them call for mommy.

[dragonshardz]

...a boss you reach as a matter of course, without sequence breaking, mops the floor with your party in a couple of rounds, then it's a flaw in the game's design. Forcing the player to muck around just trying to level up, to have enough health to survive the mandatory boss fight, is poor design.

And this has happened in every single Final Fantasy game I've ever played.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Perhaps you just weren't roundabout enough in getting to those bosses?

You should play Phantasy Star II. Being underlevelled for boss fights is one thing. Not being able to carry enough trimates to survive the three-level dungeon that leads to the boss, is completely another. I mean, god DAMN. The encounter rate in some areas is insane! And the monsters are tough, to boot. Including some very 'pretty' ones that pretty much instakill your party whenever you try to fight them.

Worst part, they don't appear if you suddenly pick the wrong place to go. They appear when, after storming through monsters in your way, you go up the stairs. This is after you've spent a good hour and a half trying to find said stairs, fighting every half-dozen steps.

[Angel Of Death]

Perhaps you just weren't roundabout enough in getting to those bosses?

You should play Phantasy Star II. Being underlevelled for boss fights is one thing. Not being able to carry enough trimates to survive the three-level dungeon that leads to the boss, is completely another. I mean, god DAMN. The encounter rate in some areas is insane! And the monsters are tough, to boot. Including some very 'pretty' ones that pretty much instakill your party whenever you try to fight them.

Worst part, they don't appear if you suddenly pick the wrong place to go. They appear when, after storming through monsters in your way, you go up the stairs. This is after you've spent a good hour and a half trying to find said stairs, fighting every half-dozen steps.

Phantasy Star II is a fantastic game. I just had to add that.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I never said it wasn't. It's just Nintendo Hard.

Interestingly, I didn't find Phantasy Star III to be all that bad either. Sure, a bit bland, even compared to PSII. But still enjoyable. Also, multiple endings.

[Angel Of Death]

I never said it wasn't. It's just Nintendo Hard.

I know you never said it wasn't a great game, I was just saying that I agree with you and it's also a great game.

What did you think about Phantasy Star 4?

[sorry about the derail]