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Yes. Scotland should be separate from the UK.

18 (42.9%)

No. Scotland should remain in the UK.

24 (57.1%)

Total Members Voted: 42

[Johnfalcon99977]

I was stubbling around the internetz when I found this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13330641

I think that Scotish independence is a good idea. But what do you think?

^{(( This is about a week old, but theres nothing on the forums about it and its still relatively new. ))}

[Megaman]

At this rate, the only possible conclusion is that every inch of Britain becomes its own nation, and in a few centuries it will destroy itself until the United Kingdom is reborn with only one nation left, and everything will be exactly the same as now. So if the Buddhists are right, our future reincarnations will be saved a lot of trouble if it doesn't happen. Independence is overrated.

[Svarte Troner]

Self determination for all!

[Pnx]

A) I'm pretty sure the British government has said it will "not block" Scottish independence since long before I was born.

B) All the Scots I've ever met, which admittedly isn't a whole lot, have been quite firmly against independence. At this point, there isn't a lot of reason to be independent of the rest of the UK. I mean, do American states object to having their central government predominantly controlled by the other 49 states?

[Darvi]

Eh.

I know I should care mroe, but I don't.

[Willfor]

I mean, do American states object to having their central government predominantly controlled by the other 49 states?

Texas.

[Ampersand]

If you concede the point to the Scottish, do you also concede it to the Welsh? What about North Ireland? Should it be handed over to the Republic of Ireland? The United Kingdom is a shorthand method of writing, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain isn't Great Britain without Scotland, now is it?

And if we really do want to hold onto this concept of Self Determination for all, would we not be considered hypocrites if we did not extend this principle to the Basques in Spain and France, to the Bretons in Brittany province in France? Should not Belgium be divided into Flanders and Walloonia? Should the region of Veneto be granted independence from Italy? How many which ways can you divide the Balkan Peninsula along ethnic lines? How much territory is the United States willing to surrender to the Lakota and other assorted tribes that it, at least in their eyes, stole land from? Do we really want to go into the Middle East and completely redraw the map lines to actually respect post colonial ethnic lines this time? Should Mexico surrender Chiapas to the Zapistas?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that there's a whole goddamn lot of these sorts of ethno-linguistic separatist movements all around the world, and conceding the point to one concedes the point to them all.

TL;DR: Ethnic Nationalism is soooo 1810's.

[Leafsnail]

It'd save the English taxpayer quite a lot of money, probably.  Scotland takes out a lot more than it puts in.  Although the interesting debate would be on how to split the debt...

A) I'm pretty sure the British government has said it will "not block" Scottish independence since long before I was born.

B) All the Scots I've ever met, which admittedly isn't a whole lot, have been quite firmly against independence. At this point, there isn't a lot of reason to be independent of the rest of the UK. I mean, do American states object to having their central government predominantly controlled by the other 49 states?

I'd have to say wrong on both counts to some degree.  David Cameron has said several times that he will fight against Scottish independence.  That probably just means trying to convince them not to have a referendum and pushing them away from independence rather than forcing them to stay if they do vote to leave, though.

As for "Scottish people don't want independence"... well, the Scottish Nationalist Party (pro-independence) has won Scotland's first ever parliamentary majority.  There's got to be some support for it...

If you concede the point to the Scottish, do you also concede it to the Welsh? What about North Ireland? Should it be handed over to the Republic if Ireland?

Yes, and we have.  I'm sure Northern Ireland would be allowed to go too if that wouldn't cause an escalation in violence from the Unionists.

[ChairmanPoo]

Food for thought: the best way to disable regional nationalist movements is to actually let them hold their referendum, and see it go down in flames when people realize that there's not much of a point. Look at Quebec.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I mean, do American states object to having their central government predominantly controlled by the other 49 states?

Texas.

The Texas Separatists are a fringe minority at best, just one that is slightly larger than other separatist groups in the country. Now, if you're typing about just hating on the federal government, that's pretty much standard. Even the federal government hates the federal government, as a matter of principle.


In any case, while I prefer to see nations unite rather than split, Scotland has the right to self-determination as much as anyone else. It's better for people to stick together, save disenfranchisement or tyranny.

[currie]

The SNP's win is mostly because Scotland had no opposition. Labour (the traditional choice for the various working class idiots who are swayed easily by rhetoric and misinformation) are currently a non-entity, the Tories are outcasts due to people hating Thatcher (for no better reason than everyone else does) and the LibDems... well, you get my point.

Support for independence remains at 33%. We ain't going anywhere. Then again, the SNP don't want us to go anywhere. Then they would lose the massive subsidies we get from England, their only coherent political point and the only reason for their existence. It's only recently dawned on me just how politically ignorant most people are. Then again, ignorance isn't exactly in short supply.

Then again, look at the AV referendum. The only places that came in 'Yes' were Oxford, Cambridge, City of London, Edinburgh East, Glasgow City Centre.... y'know, places where people are (generally) supposed to be better informed and more politically and (generally) savvy. Well done for being idiots Britain!

*sigh*
\Rant

[Pnx]

I'd have to say wrong on both counts to some degree.  David Cameron has said several times that he will fight against Scottish independence.  That probably just means trying to convince them not to have a referendum and pushing them away from independence rather than forcing them to stay if they do vote to leave, though.

Humorous note: I read that as David Tennant the first time around... I must really be tired.
Anyway, I know my parents would respond with something like "David Cameron said a lot of things", but you're right, there is opposition to Scottish independence in the British government, however I've always had the strong impression that the government as a whole, wouldn't do much to stop it happening.

As for "Scottish people don't want independence"... well, the Scottish Nationalist Party (pro-independence) has won Scotland's first ever parliamentary majority.  There's got to be some support for it...

I just got ninja'd on this...
I still stand by the fact that there isn't much point in it. For the Scotts themselves, there's no economic benefit. Politically there's not enough of a difference between them and the rest of Britain to need different policies (in general). That only leaves nationalistic identity as the only real reason to support this. But unless I've become completely out of touch with the UK's views, people in the UK tend towards the opinion that patriotism is an idiotic ideal. I don't think anybody really wants it to happen... Except the Brits that just want to get rid of Scotland. But they are dicks.

[Fayrik]

My view on this is simple. They can leave if they're willing to make me a Scottish citizen. Otherwise, why the hell should they hog all the independence? If Scotland separates from the United Kingdom, I separate from the United Kingdom.

[Leafsnail]

The SNP's win is mostly because Scotland had no opposition. Labour (the traditional choice for the various working class idiots who are swayed easily by rhetoric and misinformation) are currently a non-entity, the Tories are outcasts due to people hating Thatcher (for no better reason than everyone else does) and the LibDems... well, you get my point.

I'd disagree with "no better reason", considering that the Scottish probably suffered more than anyone else under Thatcher.  But that's slightly besides the point.  In any case, Scotland is usually very solidly Labour, who are the SNP's main opposition there.

Support for independence remains at 33%. We ain't going anywhere. Then again, the SNP don't want us to go anywhere. Then they would lose the massive subsidies we get from England, their only coherent political point and the only reason for their existence. It's only recently dawned on me just how politically ignorant most people are. Then again, ignorance isn't exactly in short supply.

Blah blah condecension blah.  I like the way your two points contradict each other (The SNP secretly only advocates support for Scottish independence to win votes...  but the majority of Scottish people don't want independence, so they'll end up losing votes for it?  Huh?).

Then again, look at the AV referendum. The only places that came in 'Yes' were Oxford, Cambridge, City of London, Edinburgh East, Glasgow City Centre.... y'know, places where people are (generally) supposed to be better informed and more politically and (generally) savvy. Well done for being idiots Britain!

I'm not sure what point you're making here since you're leaving us to guess what viewpoint you're proclaiming is the only correct answer.  You're either saying that AV is bad and anyone who supports AV is stupid (and that therefore places such as my hometown aren't as clever as they're meant to be), or that smart people voted for AV and anyone who opposed it is stupid.  Either way you're being staggeringly arrogant.

I just got ninja'd on this...
I still stand by the fact that there isn't much point in it. For the Scotts themselves, there's no economic benefit. Politically there's not enough of a difference between them and the rest of Britain to need different policies (in general). That only leaves nationalistic identity as the only real reason to support this. But unless I've become completely out of touch with the UK's views, people in the UK tend towards the opinion that patriotism is an idiotic ideal. I don't think anybody really wants it to happen... Except the Brits that just want to get rid of Scotland. But they are dicks.

Sure, you can say that there's no economic or political benefit.  But even if you're right, that doesn't change the fact that a party for whom Scottish independence (or at least a referendum on Scottish independence) is their main platform now has a majority in the Scottish parliament. There's support there even if it isn't a good idea.

Incidentally, "Brits" includes Scottish people.

[ChairmanPoo]

Blah blah condecension blah.  I like the way your two points contradict each other (The SNP secretly only advocates support for Scottish independence to win votes...  but the majority of Scottish people don't want independence, so they'll end up losing votes for it?  Huh?).

I think you are making it to be more nonsensical than it really is. Or at least, I can understand what he is going about.

I can't speak for Scottish nationalism, or the general feeling of the Scottish, about which I know nothing about. However, here (and for the purposes of this thread, let's say that "here" is "a place in which nationalist parties routinedly get 50-55% of the vote) you find many people that declare themselves nationalist because of a combination of culture and wanting more clout and advantages for the region overall, yet who confide that at present they don't see any advantages in seceding, and wouldn't vote "yes" in a poll about that.