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[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Neo, some things are supposed to beat other thing via power of balance, a game of Rock-PaperScissors where each one destroys each other doesn't make much sense, and being in a game of it where you refuse to use paper against someone who always uses rock doesn't make it seem like a fault in the game.

What if Paper is actually a secret that the game never tells you?

Now what if the game gave you hundreds and hundreds of signs... all of which lose to Rock... But then give you Paper... in a game where all enemies are rock.

Okay, so, translating that metaphor back into reality, what kinda games are like that?
Speaking of, I feel we're arguing about different things, you're saying that competitive game can have faults, which is totally true, while I'm saying you shouldn't judge a game by one aspect of itself.

[EnigmaticHat]

You guys are going to have to start mentioning specific games if you want this conversation to make any sense.

[Egan_BW]

You guys are going to have to start mentioning specific games if you want this conversation to make any sense.

I don't think that was ever a concern.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

I'm talking about the new MGO, and how Yoink may have jumped the gun a bit.

[EnigmaticHat]

I know but things were getting very abstract.

[Neonivek]

Really guys?

You can't think of any game that is insanely difficult or outright impossible unless you know secrets that the game blatantly outright doesn't tell you or requires you to have already beaten the game...

Or games where they give you plenty of variety, sometimes interesting variety, but it all might as well not exist because only ONE choice is really the good choice?

Ok then...
1) IVAN: In order to get a higher then "early victory" ending... you need to use several methods that require you to have already beaten the game to know AND a method of gaining stats hidden in the game's data files.
2) Enchant Arms: Golems SUCK! In spite the entire game being advertised on its golem system there is never a reason to use it over a character.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Okay, first up, I had no idea those games even existed and second, we're talking about multiplayer games here and the idea of classes as inherently bad, which I disagree with, while you seem to be saying that games can have faults, which I totally agree with.

[Neonivek]

Okay, first up, I had no idea those games even existed and second, we're talking about multiplayer games here and the idea of classes as inherently bad, which I disagree with, while you seem to be saying that games can have faults, which I totally agree with.

My point overall is just because you can take actions to prevent the unfun it doesn't mean it isn't a fault.

The fact that you can research what the optimal build is and just stick with that... doesn't excuse the game.

As well knowing what the optimal build is and intentionally not using it... Also doesn't excuse the game.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

I totally agree with you.
I was just confused when you said you refused to do something because that meant it was only you who would be holding back your enjoyment of the game.
Edit: Oh, wait, just saw that 'not' part on the last sentence.
Yes, it doesn't excuse the game but it doesn't excuse you, either, besides, there isn't supposed to be an optimal build because each class in MGO is designed to be a counter to a different one!

[Devastator]

I'm very much on the classes are inherently bad side.

They don't foster teamwork by forcing people to do different things.  They reduce teamwork by limiting what players can access, not characters.  Teamwork is when people combine their efforts, be it through forming mixed action groups, or by simply co-operating and working together.  That could be done through all sorts of ways, such as split objectives, multiple routes, team-level assets, etcetera.  You can do that regardless of classes.. Simply reward people for working together.  Doing it through a ham-fisted method of soft and hard counters isn't as interesting.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

I'm very much on the classes are inherently bad side.

They don't foster teamwork by forcing people to do different things.  They reduce teamwork by limiting what players can access, not characters.  Teamwork is when people combine their efforts, be it through forming mixed action groups, or by simply co-operating and working together.  That could be done through all sorts of ways, such as split objectives, multiple routes, team-level assets, etcetera.  You can do that regardless of classes.. Simply reward people for working together.  Doing it through a ham-fisted method of soft and hard counters isn't as interesting.

Man, this is hard to explain...
Alright, so, there's this piece of gear, right? It's a fluffy dog, I'm serious, it's a doggy plush, anyway, when looked at through a scope or just seen from too close up, your character will just start staring at it, it's like a long range magazine, right? It's a great counter to snipers, but, if I remember correctly, it's not available to Scouts, who are the sniper class, because otherwise it would just be too powerful, place a doggy and anyone searching for you who sees it is immediately a easy target for you, so would you say that the doggy would be allowed to the Scout?

Or invisibility Camo, it temporarily makes you near-invisible, apart from a slight blur, it's only available to Infiltrators, who are the close-up sneaky stabby class, so should that be allowed for the scout, who could just straight up become nearly impossible to spot?

Hold on...
Hmmm, now I'm confused, I honestly can't tell if gear is restricted to certain classes.
Anyway, do you get what I mean? would you like the idea of a nearly invisibly sniper? Or a sniper that can't be shot back at by another sniper because they both have doggies around them?

[hector13]

I think the Recon class can get the plushy. I recall playing as that class and thinking that would be a useful thing to have for counter-sniping, though I really don't like the class so it was last week at some point, in between all the "hey cool!" of unlocking Infiltrator stuff.

[Zangi]

I think the Recon class can get the plushy. I recall playing as that class and thinking that would be a useful thing to have for counter-sniping, though I really don't like the class so it was last week at some point, in between all the "hey cool!" of unlocking Infiltrator stuff.

I don't recall ever seeing a recon with their own plushy.  Don't have one at level 8 either, but there are +20-some more levels to go.

[sambojin]

Can you get a D-puppy plushie in real life? Because you totally should be able to.

Maybe a bobble-head for your car too.

[Zangi]

Apparently... I joined a game where everyone was cloaked... by everyone, I mean even me as enforcer.  Then I was disconnected from it.