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[Sheb]

Well, at that point, a Greek default would be better tahn the slow reverse to thrid-world coutnry they have now.

[Cthulhu]

Fun hypothetical time!

Let's suppose for a second that he forcibly raped the woman.  Also suppose that his influence at the IMF keeps governments from being forced into bankruptcy by hawkish monetary policy.  How about hypothetically if he walks, Greece doesn't default if he is found guilty, Greece goes under.

Given that hypothetical, he is guilty but him being found so would result in a Greek default, would you want him to be found guilty?

Yes, amazingly enough, having a lot of power shouldn't give you immunity to the whole "Quit doing those rapes you do" law.

[mainiac]

Well, at that point, a Greek default would be better tahn the slow reverse to thrid-world coutnry they have now.

Perhaps.  I was more thinking about the broader implications for the European banking system though.

How about an Irish default?

Fun hypothetical time!

Let's suppose for a second that he forcibly raped the woman.  Also suppose that his influence at the IMF keeps governments from being forced into bankruptcy by hawkish monetary policy.  How about hypothetically if he walks, Greece doesn't default if he is found guilty, Greece goes under.

Given that hypothetical, he is guilty but him being found so would result in a Greek default, would you want him to be found guilty?

Yes, amazingly enough, having a lot of power shouldn't give you immunity to the whole "Quit doing those rapes you do" law.

You didn't answer the question.  You merely said that morally speaking, the right thing to do is to treat him as the same.  But would you be willing to trigger a europe wide bank crises for the sake of moral principle?

Further pot stirring: Diplomats are above the law.  Should they be treated as no different from anyone else?

[Leafsnail]

You didn't answer the question.  You merely said that morally speaking, the right thing to do is to treat him as the same.  But would you be willing to trigger a europe wide bank crises for the sake of moral principle?

Further pot stirring: Diplomats are above the law.  Should they be treated as no different from anyone else?

I'd say that practically speaking we need to treat him the same too.  Otherwise unscrupulous key political/ scientific/ whatever figures could just rape and murder whoever they wanted without impunity.  Heck, even if it doesn't set a precedent, we'd still have a rapist who knows he's immune to prosecution running around if he were guilty and we let him go because he could help Greece.

(note the above is all conditional on him being guilty, something that was specified earlier)

As for diplomats... generally you send them back to their home country if they do something really bad, where they'll be prosecuted (there are cases where the home country simply waives their immunity and lets them get prosecuted, too).  A diplomat doing something bad and not getting punished at all would probably turn into a huge incident, so they're not exactly "above the law".

[Virex]

Given that hypothetical, he is guilty but him being found so would result in a Greek default, would you want him to be found guilty?

Yes on the grounds that the Greeks deserve to get their heads bashed in for destroying the Euro...

[Sheb]

Well, they're already getting more than their share of pain. A default would just be the quickest way out.

[Vector]

Given that hypothetical, he is guilty but him being found so would result in a Greek default, would you want him to be found guilty?

Yes.

Greece seriously needs some restructuring in its financial planning.  If a woman was raped by such a powerful man, she deserves justice (rather than the almost certain sweeping under the rug I believe will happen).

And same for Ireland as well.  I have faith that the global economy will right itself, sooner or later, but I have a lot less faith that our rape culture will be changed.

[mainiac]

Given that hypothetical, he is guilty but him being found so would result in a Greek default, would you want him to be found guilty?

Yes on the grounds that the Greeks deserve to get their heads bashed in for destroying the Euro...

How did they destroy the Euro?  And how does Greece deserve blame for that and not Germany which is simultaneously demanding that Greece bail out German bankers but refuses to provide adequate support to allow them to do so?

[Virex]

They destroyed it through structural lying about their financial position, lack of control and blind faith in the honesty of their inhabitants, an utterly insane economic policy (a very significant portion of the Greeks were allowed a state-funded pension at their 50th birthday for one), reliance on European aid and blatantly promoting nepotism and corruption for starters. Bailing out German banks would've been trivial if they had not acted like economic ostriches for two decades...


Look, you're in the US so this doesn't affect you much, but I'm not and at the rate it's going now, if (and that's a big if, you never know if the chemical industries decide to bail Europe before everything goes to hell or the greens decide that we can do without...) I'm going to be able to find a job in a few years, I'm going to pay well over half my income so that Greek truckers can stop working early and Greek politicians can get reelected by implementing yet another "social aid" program that curiously mostly benefits their target demographic...

[knaveofstaves]

Some of the posts in this thread are out-of-date or dismissive of the victim's claims, so let's be clear:

Man, it sure is an example of justice that he went to prison for a long ti- Oh wait, he's already free and back in his former career position. And no one seems to see anything wrong with that.

Analogizing to the Michael Vick incident is a really poor choice. Dogfighting is horrible, yes, but to judge by how the law punishes offenders: you get max four years for organizing a dogfight in NY (and only a violation, like a traffic ticket, for attending one). For the main charge against Dominique Strauss-Kahn, criminal sexual assault in the first degree, you get five to twenty-five years.

The practicalities are already obviously different as well. DSK has been relieved of his position as head of the IMF. He was prevented from returning to France, and will be facing justice here in the U.S. So neither free, nor retaining his position.

Also, sexual attack could also be that he tried to fondle her breast while drunk. Don't see evil everywhere guys.

Yes, "sexual attack" means a lot of things, but "sexual attack" isn't the charge. "Criminal sexual assault in the first degree" is.

According to the victim:

Spoiler: Hidden for graphic content (click to show/hide)

She entered his room in the normal course of her duties as hotel maid. He, fully naked, grabbed her, threw her down on the bed, and attempted to rape her. She physically resisted and fled, but he overcame her and dragged her down the hallway to the bathroom, where he attempted to rape her again. A coworker called the police, who caught DSK trying to flee the country.

As far as "innocent until proven guilty" goes, it is a polite legal fiction. There's testimony from other hotel staff, the forensics at the scene, and the report from the victim's medical examination. He's guilty as hell and, as a 62-year-old man, should die his natural death in a New York State prison.

[mainiac]

And the German bankers were stupid enough to give them their money.  Nobody forced the German banks to loan the money and the German bankers had all the facts available to them.  It's not like Greece hasn't agreed to very, very harsh austerity measures that have caused a massive economic contraction just to make voters in other countries happier.  And meanwhile for it's trouble, Greece gets to enjoy the privilege of being shackled to a Euro that doesn't appreciate to alleviate their pain because a bunch of Germans are afraid that maybe in a few years there might be inflation.

Besides, you guys in Europe don't know how lucky you have it.  I'd trade you guys Greece for Mississippi or Alabama in a heartbeat.  Take a look at those crap piles and maybe you'll understand what ingratitude is.

This whole Strauss-Kahn thing is crazy as hell.  I mean literally crazy.  What would make a man like this go insane like that and do such a horrible thing?

[ChairmanPoo]

strauss-KAAAAHN!!! strauss-KAAAHN!!!

[Zrk2]

Fun hypothetical time!

Let's suppose for a second that he forcibly raped the woman.  Also suppose that his influence at the IMF keeps governments from being forced into bankruptcy by hawkish monetary policy.  How about hypothetically if he walks, Greece doesn't default if he is found guilty, Greece goes under.

Given that hypothetical, he is guilty but him being found so would result in a Greek default, would you want him to be found guilty?

The results of his conviction are irrelevant, all that matters to the proceedings are whether or not he is guilty.

[ChairmanPoo]

TBH, we have been seeing a lot of odd stuff, dubious stuff, happen lately in the name of realpolitik. If a man who apparently tried to rape a woman with witnesses around got away with it because people were afraid of the next man being worse, it would move right into parody grounds.

[sonerohi]

I've never understood why we are so delicate about national level shit. We keep doing screwed up shit to compensate for other screwed up shit, which in turn allows for more screwed up shit. If you screw up, rather than turning everything into this contorted mess, crash and burn and take another try. Really hope this guy gets torn a new one in the worst prison that can be supplied.