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[Necro910]

We have calcium derived bones, I assure you. Iron phosphate, for example, is derived from iron - phosphor iron is famously an extremely durable form of iron - and there's enough iron in our blood for it to be potentially affected (messily) by high power magnetic fields. So yes, not only do we have metal bones, we infact have metal blood. Our bodies contain a whole host of metals, and many metals, including calcium, iron, phosphorous, zinc, etc. are absolutely essential for our health.

I know this is all true, but your wording makes it sound super dorfy.

"not only do we have metal bones, we have metal blood."

[SirHoneyBadger]

I know this is all true, but your wording makes it sound super dorfy.

I'm more than happy to take that as a compliment.

[Necro910]

I know this is all true, but your wording makes it sound super dorfy.

I'm more than happy to take that as a compliment.
[/quote]You're welcome

[SirHoneyBadger]

 

[_DivideByZero_]

many metals, including calcium, iron, phosphorous, zinc, etc. are absolutely essential for our health

Phosphorus is a nonmetal

It is not metal. The metal in our body is not pure, it's bonded to nonmetals and covalent ions. Bone, for example, is calcium metal bonded to hydroxide (OH-) and phosphate (PO4). The bonds through which metals bond to nonmetals are called ionic bonds.
Take calcium, for example. It's missing two extra electrons from having a vull valence shell (8 electrons) so this makes its outer electron shell (6/8 electrons) unstable and thus leads to the reactions that calcium goes through normally. Phosphate, on the other hand, is negatively charged because the (confusing) covalent bonding process between the oxygen atoms and the phosphorus atom leads to having two extra electrons floating about.

So when calcium is just floating around, phosphate comes by and shares its two extra electrons with calcium, thus making the molecule stable.
The new calcium phosphate salt now does not react in the way calcium (or any metal, really) reacts, nor does it react like phosphate.

Thus, calcium phosphate is not considered a metal. Calcium on its own is metal, but when bonded to something it no longer acts like a metal, so your bones are not considered "metal."
Bones are not made of "solid calcium" as you claimed, because the calcium is bonded to phosphates and hydroxides and is thus not "solid calcium" but "solid hydroxyapatite," which is constituted primarily of calcium bonded to other molecules.

Blood is red. Do you know why? Because of the iron. However, iron is silvery. I wonder how it's red then? It's because the iron in your blood is bonded to oxygen. You do not have pure iron in your blood, but rather iron oxide, which produces the red color.


Although, admittedly, just disregarding modern physics and saying we're made of metal IS in fact quite dwarfy.

[SirHoneyBadger]

many metals, including calcium, iron, phosphorous, zinc, etc. are absolutely essential for our health

Phosphorus is a nonmetal

It is not metal. The metal in our body is not pure, it's bonded to nonmetals and covalent ions. Bone, for example, is calcium metal bonded to hydroxide (OH-) and phosphate (PO4). The bonds through which metals bond to nonmetals are called ionic bonds.
Take calcium, for example. It's missing two extra electrons from having a vull valence shell (8 electrons) so this makes its outer electron shell (6/8 electrons) unstable and thus leads to the reactions that calcium goes through normally. Phosphate, on the other hand, is negatively charged because the (confusing) covalent bonding process between the oxygen atoms and the phosphorus atom leads to having two extra electrons floating about.

So when calcium is just floating around, phosphate comes by and shares its two extra electrons with calcium, thus making the molecule stable.
The new calcium phosphate salt now does not react in the way calcium (or any metal, really) reacts, nor does it react like phosphate.

Thus, calcium phosphate is not considered a metal. Calcium on its own is metal, but when bonded to something it no longer acts like a metal, so your bones are not considered "metal."
Bones are not made of "solid calcium" as you claimed, because the calcium is bonded to phosphates and hydroxides and is thus not "solid calcium" but "solid hydroxyapatite," which is constituted primarily of calcium bonded to other molecules.

Blood is red. Do you know why? Because of the iron. However, iron is silvery. I wonder how it's red then? It's because the iron in your blood is bonded to oxygen. You do not have pure iron in your blood, but rather iron oxide, which produces the red color.


Although, admittedly, just disregarding modern physics and saying we're made of metal IS in fact quite dwarfy.

I think you're straying a little too far from the intention of my statement. If this were a physics class, you'd have a good point, but I think for the sake of conversation, and being understood without requiring a chemistry textbook, my statements were all accurate enough. DF doesn't track atomic bonds quite yet, and for the purposes of making soup, relating bones to calcite is close enough for government work.

[_DivideByZero_]

Bone is nothing like calcite. calcite is calcium carbonate which is a hard, flaky material. Bones are more rubbery and durable.

In terms of food, yeah. Bonemeal is already in the game, but I am unaware as to how to actually make it.

[Halconnen]

Shouldn't metals bonded into compounds like the iron oxide in our blood be completely nonmagnetic, though? Why, then, are powerful magnetic fields hazardous to our health?

[Halnoth]

Shouldn't metals bonded into compounds like the iron oxide in our blood be completely nonmagnetic, though? Why, then, are powerful magnetic fields hazardous to our health?

That is not solely because of the iron in our blood. Ionic bonds are polar, always, there is a negative and positive area of the molecule. If our blood was based on say cobalt instead of iron the same thing would happen.

This is in stark contrast to something like oil which more or less distributes its electrons evenly throughout the molecule which means there is no clear negative or positive area of the molecule. This also is why we use an atom like iron in our blood because oxygen would not so easily bond with oil or a similar molecule.

[Halconnen]

Oh, right.

The mental image of having all ionic molecules in one's body rearranged to match a suitably strong magnetic field seems like a verybadthing(tm).

Somehow strikes me as a dorfy demise, though.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Cobalt is ferromagnetic, like iron, so it wouldn't be surprising that it should act that way.

Some kind of magic/alchemy that temporarily created a supermagnetic field from, say, a rare lodestone, via handwaved thaumaturgy for instance, could be a fairly balanced, low magic effect, and quite a nasty trap. It would immediately magnetize any iron, steel, etc., disarming, and possibly rendering immobile those within it's immediate effects, and eventually becoming deleterous to their health, probably eventually causing a syndrome-like bleeding/bruising effect. 

It would affect any ferrous metal, or anyone with normal blood, in it's proximity, similar to an upright spear trap.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We have calcium derived bones, I assure you. Iron phosphate, for example, is derived from iron - phosphor iron is famously an extremely durable form of iron - and there's enough iron in our blood for it to be potentially affected (messily) by high power magnetic fields. So yes, not only do we have metal bones, we infact have metal blood. Our bodies contain a whole host of metals, and many metals, including calcium, iron, phosphorous, zinc, etc. are absolutely essential for our health.

Yes, but not solid metal bones or blood.

In terms of food, yeah. Bonemeal is already in the game, but I am unaware as to how to actually make it.

Be a night creature, basically.

Shouldn't metals bonded into compounds like the iron oxide in our blood be completely nonmagnetic, though? Why, then, are powerful magnetic fields hazardous to our health?

That is not solely because of the iron in our blood. Ionic bonds are polar, always, there is a negative and positive area of the molecule. If our blood was based on say cobalt instead of iron the same thing would happen.

This is in stark contrast to something like oil which more or less distributes its electrons evenly throughout the molecule which means there is no clear negative or positive area of the molecule. This also is why we use an atom like iron in our blood because oxygen would not so easily bond with oil or a similar molecule.

Plus, iron oxide isn't magnetic.

[Wyrm]

I have to agree with GWG. We have metal blood and bones only in the sense that metal ions form major components of same. We do not have metal blood and bones because these metal ions are not in a metallic state, and as such have no significant magnetism.

Ferromagnetism results from unpaired electrons in neutral metals all lining up in domains. However, this requires two things: the atoms be within a crystal lattice (which it isn't in blood), and that the exchange interaction from nearby atoms is stronger than the dipole-dipole interaction, which causes unpaired dipoles to dominate over paired dipoles. This latter reason is why calcium is not particularly magnetic. It has only filled shells, and this does not improve when calcium salts form, as they do in actual bone. In blood, the iron atoms are not in a crystal lattice, and as such the exchange interaction does not come into play — the electrons spins pair up and cancel each other out, and so iron in hemoglobin is not particularly magnetic either.

Now, there is a net electric dipole in all ionic compounds, but only when a pair is isolated. In bulk, the ions are mixed up, and as such there is no net electric dipole either.

[Rocky]

I like how this went from a dwarf fortress modding discussion to a real life biology discussion

A very awesome biology discussion, ofcourse

[GreatWyrmGold]

I like how this went from a dwarf fortress modding discussion to a real life biology discussion

A very awesome biology discussion, ofcourse

And how would it be any other way here?

I'm just glad to have a less-directly-related-to-DF use for my random useless knowledge.