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[Lord_lemonpie]

Q: Line skillshot, damages and slows first enemy hit. If there's an enemy behind first target, stuns both targets.

You forgot to mention that it also stuns someone if there is a wall behind them. This guy will probably have a lot of synergy with vayne botlane.

It's brutal, but I think Morgana and Anivia offer better laning power. (Anivia lands a stun then casts wall setting up for vayne stun, and Morgana brings all the boys to the yard)

True, if Morgana is able to land her binding close to a wall the cc will be ridiculous. I don't see Anivia very often, and definitely not as a support, but I can see some synergy there.

Now it's possible to create a team comp with 4 wall stuns and one wall creator.
Gnar top, Poppy jungle, Anivia mid, Vayne adc and Bard support. If Anivia succeeds in creating a good wall in a teamfight, the cc would be complete bullshit.

[UXLZ]

Hey, remember when abilities with strong CC either cost fucktons of mana, did pitiful damage, or had massive cooldowns?

Then LOLGnar.

[DemonOfWrath]

Actually Gnar ult has basically the same cooldown as Ori ult (not including that Ori will have more CDR) and more base damage (but not much if you don't hit them into a wall) but a lot less with items. Trade a mana cost for being conditional and melee range. (wiki says Ori ult disables through the flinging for ~1.25 sec, Gnar ult has 1.75 sec slow/stun but is affected by tenacity and conditional)

Big wombo comps and powerful AoE and/or CC abilities have always been a thing, it's just right now Gnar is meta (instead of say Malphite) and Ori isn't so the little (big) guy is more noticeable.

[UXLZ]

Talking about the rest of his abilities as well, DoW.

[Lord_lemonpie]

Actually Gnar ult has basically the same cooldown as Ori ult (not including that Ori will have more CDR) and more base damage (but not much if you don't hit them into a wall) but a lot less with items. Trade a mana cost for being conditional and melee range. (wiki says Ori ult disables through the flinging for ~1.25 sec, Gnar ult has 1.75 sec slow/stun but is affected by tenacity and conditional)

Yeah but Gnar is completely different from Ori. The cooldown might be the same, and the damage might be more (not that that really matters, he usually builds full tank). Gnar has two slows, 2.5 escapes/gap closers, one AoE stun, one AoE displacement that can result in a huge stun, %max enemy health, %max own health, extra movespeed, and extra attack speed. He indeed does less damage than Ori, but that's because she's supposed to do more damage in exchange for less cc and something you can barely call an escape.

I'm not saying Ori is bad, I just think you can barely compare them because of their completely different roles.

[DemonOfWrath]

You were talking about strong CC abilities, hence it seemed natural you meant the ult. His Q and W aren't all that special in terms of the CC they have compared to other champs.

@lemonpie Yes of course, I was only comparing the ults basically as wombo components, and I wanted to point out how Gnar ult isn't really out of line compared to some of the other big AoE CC things that already exist. And I'd like to point out that simply listing out the entirety of Gnar's kit is kind of midleading as he only has access to (a very telegraphed) half of it at once, and has a hard time controlling which half you have access to (being in a teamfight as mini-Gnar is a very underwhelming thing).

He's strong yes, but also hard to use fully (I play him and staying at the right rage for teamfights can be really difficult!), and once you know how he works you can also play around/with his rage as an opponent, for instance if you're all posturing for a teamfight you can poke him out to push him into mega, let it run out, and then go in while he offers very little.

[UXLZ]

The point though, DoW, is that he has all of those on the same kit.

I don't think there's another champ in the game that can claim to have CC on every single one of their abilities while still doing high damage and having low cooldowns and being manaless to boot.

[DemonOfWrath]

And I said he only has half of that at once. Have you played Gnar? Neither of his forms offers more on his kit than another champ (and yes each form needs to have a decent kit, otherwise he'd be utter garbage a huge chunk of the game) and has some pretty well defined strengths and weaknesses. You don't want to all-in or teamfight a Mega Gnar, and you don't want to get into a long chase with Mini Gnar, and you can easily see when he's going to change.

E has no CC in Mega form, and is almost never going to be used for the half second slow in Mini form (because it's pretty suicidal). I'd like to compare to Maokai, as he feels the most similar to Mega Gnar I can think of (big tanky thing with a crapload of CC) and also a top pick right now. Cooldowns (non-ult) on Gnar are far worse initially, then a bit better assuming you pick up the rock. Damage seems reasonably similar across the whole kit. I don't play the tree so I'm not that sure on how bad his mana problems are, but his build path always involves a heap of mana so I imagine they aren't bad (manaless is good early game, tends to even out later as anyone with mana issues will usually build to even them out).

And remember Mega Gnar is tied for slowest champ in the game, despite being melee, if he's not on top of you he likely isn't catching up even if he hits rocks unless you have no mobility at all (he's that slow). If you miss a rock you'll catch up to nobody.

Mini Gnar has a slow on the boomerang and a speed boost from W procs, but remember on that form you're basically a Teemo with less damage but tankier (with items). And his cooldowns do suck at the start of the game, catching the boomerang just brings it down to reasonable until you're close to maxing it out.

I'm also trying to avoid bringing in numbers to this and don't really care about those, because those can be tuned (and he has gotten a few nerfs in recent patches). His overall kit isn't really out of line with other stuff in the game, ignoring whether he's currently a bit strong or a bit weak (those are more about numbers with few exceptions). You can make practically any champ sound rediculous if you just list out all the strengths of their kit without noting any of the drawbacks, it's just a whole lot easier with Gnar when you ignore that you're semi-uncontrollably switching between essentially two champions.

[Jiokuy]

http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-54-notes

*random garbage*

EDIT: actually 850 range on that q, I think I can work with this, tooo bot matches.

Welp this hurts as bad as it seems, the double tap is nice, he's a bit like a weaker nassus now.

[Frumple]

We actually just spent a good handful of pages talking about how badly veigar just got kicked in the reproductive organs, heh. Starts around here, goes on for a fair bit. The tl;dr version is that veigar just got shat upon.

[Flying Dice]

While old Veigar needed to rely on Event Horizon's immediate stun to zone out potential threats, keeping its current iteration meant we either needed to reduce Veigar's damage (but you can't reduce a 100-0 burst mage to 100-20) or tackle his outright reliability. Ultimately we went with the latter.

>DFG removal
>AP ratio reduction on ult
>not reducing his damage


I swear, it's like they've got two entirely different balance teams, one full of  the crackpots who put this together, and the other with the fine-touch geniuses who handled the Kat and Syndra changes.

Any Morde players to weigh in on his stuff?

(PS: Rito, whoever made the new splashes needs to go in for a drug screening before being fire for pawning off terrible, shitty art. And RIP Revive. URF returning confirmed?)

[Solymr]

I was a big Morde player some time ago but he just got a little too unplayable.

The changes are bogus tho. They reduced cost of Q/W by a litte bit but not his most used skill and reduced his HP5 and ratios. W applying to 2targets is nice but you can't double damage which sucks. Q got a little range but less damage.

And none of that % shield gain and other changes I saw in PBE which would have made him a lot more durable IMO.

[UXLZ]

I think we all know the reason Ahri actually got properly compensated for the DFG removal rather than nerfed.

It starts with 'tits' and ends with 'and ass'.

[Solymr]

Isn't there a new Ahri skin close to release now? Challenger Ahri or something like that? There you go :v

[UXLZ]

As far as I can tell Riot's balance team is on crack for the DFG removal changes.

'Hey, we're getting Ahri and a few other's changes go through because they're minor.'
-Massively buffs Ahri, real compensation for losing DFG.

'We'll leave the guys who were super reliant on DFG for last because they'll need big changes.'
-Nerfs Veigar and Mordekaiser into the ground.

Hilariously, with the nerfs and DFG removal they've essentially lowered his AP Ratios by 0.84 , which is HUGE. Oh, then they nerfed his Q, and his E, and (effectively) his passive. Seriously, it's insane. The old Veigar had 3.2 total ratios and a 20% damage amp from DFG, as well as an instant stun and a Q that was actually guaranteed to hit.

The new Veigar has 3.0 total ratios, 0% damage amp, a massively delayed stun, a W that will NEVER hit because of the delayed stun, and a Q that will only hit about half the time.

'Compensation' my ass.

Honestly, I'm wondering if the reason they're doing this to Veigar/Morde is because they can't properly compensate them (don't know how to) and they're just nerfing them while they try to figure out what to do (a la Evelynn, Poppy). Of course, in that case, Veigar and Morde probably won't be viable for the next three years, but eh~, Ahri skinz.