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[UXLZ]

The worst thing I can see with his stun changes is that they're going to make Veigar less fun. When it was instant, you could drop it on someone's head and think 'Yeah, I'm good, I landed the stun'.
Now, with the massive delay, ever time you hit a stun you'll be thinking 'It wasn't really me being that good. My opponent could have dodged it, they were just bad.'

It's also going to fuck up his combos something awful. Remember that trick where you place the W down before the stun, catching under it? Good luck doing that ever again.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, you had to hammer out that combo insanely fast. W had to be prepped before you dropped the stun if you wanted your full DFG -> Q -> R -> W lands burst to go off before the stun ended.

Like, literally the only place I see Veigar being useful is if a game goes to an hour and he's left to freefarm until he has 1500+ AP and can two-shot towers with Lich Bane or whatever, and his Q poke can one-shot carries. AKA never going to happen, even in Bronze V.

[Jiokuy]

When I was talking about support, I was trying to say. Veigar is now a super combo mage, the only problem is, none of his abilities actually synergise, you have to have a second champ to do literally anything. I chose to have faith in riot after the Sion update, that they are not going to break a champion into the kind of disjointed mess pre-rework sion was.

Although I have to say, it's deliciously ironic that for all of their talk of introducing counterplay with new Sion, The optimal Sion  playstyle revolves around eliminating your opponents ability to react to your skills (through teamwork, spamming e in lane, or bush q-ing, ect), and relying on having easily the highest base damages in the game.

[UXLZ]

Here's the general gist of things, then.

1) Riot removed Veigar's most important item from the game, saying that they'd give compensation to champions (like Veigar) who were overly reliant on the item (we saw this, quite effectively, with Ahri.)
2) Riot hence decided to nerf Veigar (because reasons. Maybe they don't like short people?)
3) None of his abilities synergize.
4) His damage is lower. His Q can hits two people (sometimes, maybe, if you get lucky?) but his ultimate got nerfed fairly hard. In fact, now it's really only useful against other AP casters. The reason why it had a 1.2 AP ratio is because it's a SINGLE TARGET PURE DAMAGE ability.
5) His stun is now useless for actually stunning people unless you're chasing someone with 200 health or you've got team mates helping out. At best it's a slightly less effective in some ways more effective in other Anivia wall.

[Sharp]

Hmm, I think just really wait and see how it does play out. It looks like he loses out a lot of surprise nuking people but it looks like he can dish out more damage in teamfights and zone control.

Also a lot of you guys keep saying Veigar shouldn't Q farm at the start but most times I see Veigar get played he gets crushed in lane but given enough time he can Q farm his way to victory so maybe almost doubling the amount of Q stacks he gets looks fairly powerful.

Lots of people complained about the Fizz rework but he looks like a pretty strong jungler/top laner now.

[Solymr]

All these complaints every time a major change is done before actually testing it seem part of everyday LoL at this time.

I doubt people have even taken into account the new item they're planning to make to fill in for DFG. It's not as good as DFG was but could turn Veigar into a poke king.

[UXLZ]

@Sharp: That's because those Veigar's are bad. He's actually a lane bully, people just don't realise it.

Fizz didn't get a rework and neither has Veigar. Fizz had his W changed a bit and his ult changed a bit but they're still fundamentally the same sills they were before. In Veigar's case, the Q was changed very significantly, and everything else is about the same (just weaker.)

@Soly: This is a genuine nerf though. At the very least, it's ruined Veigar for me conceptually.

Also, Soly, DFG does not synergize with poke.
On another note, even if DFG was still a thing everyone would be hating these changes because they make an already barely competitive champion worse. Plus, you don't really get a DFG-like item if you want to poke. >_>

[frostshotgg]

As far as Fizz is concerned, he stopped being an assassin in the same way he was before.

[UXLZ]

Moral of the story: Veigar's changes are dum, gg Rito.

Y'know, even if it isn't really that bad, I still think it's degenerate giving an otherwise purely physical champion %maxhealth magic damage. God damned Gnar.

I'm happy with the Fizz changes if  they mean he has to stay in combat for longer than 0.5 seconds before polevaulting away.

[frostshotgg]

No mechanic could possibly be as degenerate as %maxhealth true damage. There's literally no counter to it, beyond killing Vayne first.

[UXLZ]

Eh, given the way it's applied it's technically countered by AS slows but it's a moot point, you're pretty right.
I think Gnar's is overall better, though. It's not true damage, but I believe it does more damage (Vayne's is like, 7%, Gnar's is 11% or something at max level?)
Plus, it gives him a massive speed boost every time it's procced. :v

Thing is, though, Gnar's may not be true damage but it's a damage type extremely dissonant (like if Zed's ultimate did magic damage, Or Anivia's Q did physical.)

[Arcvasti]

Meh, most bruisers/tanks/whatever have mixed damage types. Shyv's W, E and ult all do magic damage and the rest of her kit is AD based, Mundo has an AD steroid right next to AP abilities.

No mechanic could possibly be as degenerate as %maxhealth true damage. There's literally no counter to it, beyond killing Vayne first.

Blinds still counter it. And killing/ccing/walking away from Vayne isn't ALL that hard.

[UXLZ]

Right, but do any of them have %maxhealth damage of the type contrary to the rest of their kit? Oh, and to a reasonable degree, not like Renekton's.

[Arcvasti]

Right, but do any of them have %maxhealth damage of the type contrary to the rest of their kit?

I DID mention Shyvana, didn't I? Her E proc does %maxhealth magic damage and she has mostly physical damage/AD scalings.

[Sharp]

Eh, given the way it's applied it's technically countered by AS slows but it's a moot point, you're pretty right.
I think Gnar's is overall better, though. It's not true damage, but I believe it does more damage (Vayne's is like, 7%, Gnar's is 11% or something at max level?)
Plus, it gives him a massive speed boost every time it's procced. :v

Vayne's is 8% true and Gnar's is 14% magic at max ranks, Gnar's also works on multiple enemies at a time although in Gnar form he can't really attack multiple enemies for multiple hits at the same time, but makes it possible to target switch and still proc Hyper.

I really don't like Gnar, he can be bullied at early levels and timed ganks after he transforms can beat him in lane but he still has so much base tankiness CC and damage in his kit which makes him useful always in late game. And if he does get ahead he becomes an absolute monster (with or without transforming), get a Phage/Trinity on him and he can chase down people and kill them so quickly and then just build tanky to do ridiculous damage. I feel he is a true pub stomp champ.

--

Anyway I still feel Veigar will be just as viable as he is now. One thing not mentioned here about his Q change is that because it is a pass-through 1st hit effect he can choose to either get 2 ap from one Q or get 1 AP and poke enemy at the same time, it looks like it will take a lot more skill to play him and yes teamwork with other champs, with increased range it looks like it can be used for zoning and trapping a lot more easily so looks quite powerful for ganks.