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[Flying Dice]

It's really because hard CC takes muh mobilities and I wanna go fast all the time.

[Jiokuy]

I for one look forward to seeing Veigar support botlane with Relic and co. (/s) Since after this patch, he's obviously not meant to midlane. What with no mobility, and no cc that could stop a gank. He can literally never mid midlane again, even the shittiest jungler can fuck him up now.

[Sharp]

Can't say without trying him how bad it's going to be, but honestly it looks like he is going to be able to farm up AP stacks more quickly and the shorter cooldowns means he might actually be able to do more in a teamfight then nuking down one target and running away.

How quick is the Q projectile?

[Frumple]

Have a video? No clue what/if the person recording it is saying -- I watched it muted up 'till about the half-way mark.

It's not notably fast, though. I'd probably say around whatever the average for skillshots is.

... and as noted, the teamfight presence is almost certainly going to be worse. A CD reduction doesn't really make up for the E being gutted, the Q being dodgable/blockable, and the R's primary scaling being cut by a 1/6th.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah... I'm calling unplayable now that I've seen that. He got completely shit on. Time to play him while I can, I suppose. (Rito refund Final Boss when?)

I for one look forward to seeing Veigar support botlane with Relic and co. (/s) Since after this patch, he's obviously not meant to midlane. What with no mobility, and no cc that could stop a gank. He can literally never mid midlane again, even the shittiest jungler can fuck him up now.

Not even. The only thing that ever made him possible as a support was his stun, and it sucks now.

[Cthulufaic]

Yeah... I'm calling unplayable now that I've seen that. He got completely shit on. Time to play him while I can, I suppose. (Rito refund Final Boss when?)

I for one look forward to seeing Veigar support botlane with Relic and co. (/s) Since after this patch, he's obviously not meant to midlane. What with no mobility, and no cc that could stop a gank. He can literally never mid midlane again, even the shittiest jungler can fuck him up now.

Not even. The only thing that ever made him possible as a support was his stun, and it sucks now.

I used to play him as the carry in botlane, it worked pretty well(then again we had a kickass jungler and a balls-deep go-ham support.)

[baruk]

Uh, lol. It's not better waveclear. Early his waveclear is shit regardless unless he's Bronze-pushing without last-hitting, and lategame it was and will continue to be "W wave, walk away."

Q is twice as good at waveclearing since it will now hit two minions instead of one. That's a big deal for a champ with bad early waveclear.

I for one look forward to seeing Veigar support botlane with Relic and co. (/s) Since after this patch, he's obviously not meant to midlane. What with no mobility, and no cc that could stop a gank. He can literally never mid midlane again, even the shittiest jungler can fuck him up now.

Not even. The only thing that ever made him possible as a support was his stun, and it sucks now.

  RIP support Veigar. The stun was a good pickoff tool before, but the 0.75s delay demotes its role to disengage/follow-up stun - you'll need better teamwork to get the most out of it now.
 To get things in perspective, Zyra's ult has a full 2 second delay on its 1 second knockup - it's still considered a useful disengage ability. Huge AOE, but it is an ult after all. It gives your team a somewhat safe zone to retreat into, and I think the new event horizon will be used in the same way (albeit on a somewhat more modest scale).

[Frumple]

... I can't help but think that if the Q is being used for waveclear something terrible has happened >_> Cleanup after a W (which is, at least, cheaper and faster now), maybe, but...

It also has a higher CD and is significantly easier to, y'know, screw up, get blocked, etc. Conceptually it can be used to farm up AP faster, but that's in exchange for a higher skill cap, a notable increase of creep management to be able to maximize its use, and an uptick in the enemy's ability to interfere. It's... not a favorable trade, imo.

[UXLZ]

I find it hilarious that everyone seems to think that Veigar was all about farming up dat Q early game, but in all honest that was not the correct thing to do. Until about level seven, you should just be spamming Q onto the enemy laner's face to try and get them low enough for a kill, or to push them out. (Depending on lane, of course.)

Focusing on nothing but farming with your Q from level one is quite bad. You'll run out of mana very quickly while exerting no pressure and the amount you farm up with it is pitiful anyway. Thirty in six minutes or something?
Veigar isn't Nasus.

[Flying Dice]

If you're trying to waveclear early as Veigar you're fucking up. You Q stack only on supers and when you can't poke; if your opponent is full health when you hit 6, you fucked up. The point where you start farming stacks in earnest is when you've backed and come back with enough AP and mana regen to spam it on every single minion.

[baruk]

 We're agreed that Veigar has bad early waveclear? Do you think this might just be a weakness that could be exploited? I'll spell it out: the improved Q is going to help you last hit under the turret.

... I can't help but think that if the Q is being used for waveclear something terrible has happened >_> Cleanup after a W (which is, at least, cheaper and faster now), maybe, but...

Yes, the Q is still for clean up after a W. I should clarify that the Q getting better at waveclear improves his overall waveclear kit, not suggesting that Q replaces W at that job (that would be silly).

I find it hilarious that everyone seems to think that Veigar was all about farming up dat Q early game, but in all honest that was not the correct thing to do. Until about level seven, you should just be spamming Q onto the enemy laner's face to try and get them low enough for a kill, or to push them out. (Depending on lane, of course.)

It depends on the matchup. The enemy laner is not just going to stand there like a fish whilst you run up and Q him - it might be a very bad idea against certain champs.

If you're trying to waveclear early as Veigar you're fucking up.

The enemy laner isn't necessarily going to give you much choice in the matter.

[Flying Dice]

You're missing the point entirely. Veigar's early game isn't about waveclear. He doesn't need waveclear. Waveclear does nothing for him; sometimes getting extra damage onto a second minion when he Qs doesn't mean shit against something like a Zed or Annie that can keep shoving into his turret.

What Veigar needs is reliable high-damage single-target burst. That's the entire concept behind the champion. With the E ruined he's already lost most of that (again, it is impossible to land a W against a competent opponent without that stun), and everything else is just an insult.

What you're saying is like if Akali's R got nerfed to only have one charge with shorter range, her W's duration was reduced, the proc damage on her mark was lowered, but her Q was changed from a single-target to a cone akin to Talon's Rake. You'd say, "Oh, well she has better waveclear now," which is completely irrelevant to her kit and role.

[Arcvasti]

Yeah, Veig Q was mostly for applying to the other laner's face non-stop early game. I don't mind his Q now being a skillshot thing THAT much[I haven't played him on the PBE yet, so IDK how it'll feel in practice], but I will definitely agree that, combined with the other changes its a huge nerf. I could get behind the new delay on his E, since I like the idea of it being a cage to make someone stay inside to get hit for your W, not a huge instant AoE long duration stun with a wonky hitbox. In practice though, this is going to be a huge nerf for little Veigar. Still not sure why they nerfed his ult's AP ratio. While getting clicked on and instantly vapourized by one spell[Only hapens late-game if the other mid-laner has little to no MR. Still hapens though.] isn't fun, the removal of DFG was an indirect way of mitigating that and this additional nerf was adding insult to injury. Personally, I'd love to see a Veigar who doesn't completely rely on an instant 2.5 second stun to be able to do anything, because that's annoying as fuck to be on the other end of. but I'm fairly sure these changes aren't the right direction to be going in to achieve that while letting Veigar still melt faces. Hopefully Rito will buff him again a patch or two afterwards.

[UXLZ]

Thing is though, Veigar needs that stun. For one, it has a long cooldown and high mana cost, for two it's actually fairly hard to aim accurately, for three your W is almost completely useless without it, for four it's your only method of survivability and so on. Veigar has short range and he's outdated in the #leagueofdashes, so that stun was the only thing letting him compete. As I said, I understand them wanting to make it less bullshit (because it is a bullshit ability, we can all agree on that. Even without any damage it's insanely strong) but I was expecting them to reduce its power and then put more power into the rest of his kit, rather than effectively nerfing him across the board.

[Arcvasti]

Yeah, that's basically what the last part of my post was. Veigar's stun was stupid, but it also NEEDED to be that stupid for him to work. For Veigar to be good without his stun being stupid, his other stuff needs to be better. But no, they straight up nerfed his ult and gave his Q a change of seriously dubious usefulness, which is going about it the wrong way. That plus the removal of DFG means Veig won't be doing too well. Maybe Rito will see sense and repeal the nerfs before it goes live, but I'm not counting on it.